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Can anyone see our orders?

 
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robertjc

Can anyone see our orders?

I think according to the answer to this question it will be either brilliant or deemed dumb...

I have traded stocks for years. Orders go through brokers. Traders are always warned that brokers can and will manipulate the price of a stock to grab stop loss orders or produce fake outs in order to grab your stocks at a cheaper price before continuing which ever direction they wish to take said stock.

Whew!
And the question is....Since FX is IMF, and apparently our orders sit only on our computers...(newbies, don't turn off your machine at night if you have orders running, we have been told that they will not execute) Please correct me if I've been misinformed.
Does or can anyone see our orders?
Can anyone see where we have set our stops?
Are they hidden or are they naked?

Thanks!
Bob

Wed, 02/27/2019 - 1:36pm
 
scottpatton

Good questions. I look at it,.. since we are trading Apiary Funds money, we are a part of a big player for their liquidity provider(s).
Would be interesting to know who that is too.

 
Allengoldatty

Bob;

You raise a question that I love to answer...there is no doubt some traders believe that in the multi-billion Forex industry Big Banks are spending millions of dollars to move the forex market to run stops on Demo accounts.... Really???

Allen

 
Rookie

as Jackie Gleason would say, and away we go!

 
gpdno

but... but.. Allen, I read it on the internet!

 
boss_hogg

I am absolutely convinced that there is a little man behind my screen who stops price dead in its tracks every time I place an order. There just has to be. It's the only explanation!

 
scottpatton

I personally did not think Robert was talking about the demo accounts.

 
Allengoldatty

I knew I was going to stir the Hornets nest....

Scott, since Bob is in Silver I, I assume he is not funded. However, lets go real world. Again I ask do you think Big Banks are spending the millions of dollars it take to move the Forex market to run stops on a a 1, 5, or 10 lot position..... Talk about shitty risk management.

Greg, if you read it on the internet, it must be true....

Allen

 
scottpatton

No I don't think they are taking out stops like that at all as I posted my view.

 
Rookie

as Jackie Gleason would say, and away we go!

and its time for Youtube live with our master Yoda!

 
Allengoldatty

Scott;

I meant no offense but there are some traders, and again I am not talking about you, that prefer to blame their bad trades on everything other than the person hitting the buttons and this is one of the favorites.

Allen

 
DRCTN

Jackie who?

 
Rookie

Just for you Mike,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Gleason
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honeymooners along with Ralph Crandon
Also has great orchestral(s) on YouTube music.
and if you like pool check out the Fats in https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/hustler

 
gpdno

Personally, I just blame all my bad trades on Ed :)

Peace,
Greg

 
Rookie

Thx Gregg, you taught me well well the student becomes the teacher!:))))

 
scottpatton

I didn't take any offence, just tried to point out to Robert how Apiary is different from going through any broker.

 
robertjc

Sheez guys!

I come from a background of stocks & brokers. I know this is a practice in those markets.
I asked because this is a differently run market and such information can and would fit into ones process.

That's all, just trying to understand the way this market works.
I didn't consider whether or not the account is real or demo, funded or not.
All I wanted was to understand how it works and if this issue should be a consideration.

Reading between the snarky I guess I'm suppose to believe the answer to my question is no.

Thanks to all.

 
robertjc

To the moon Alice!!!

 
Rookie

Bob, there is no centralized Forex market, you are correct the answer is no.
That said I believe tier 3 clearing banks can. I have also heard that if you trade tier 2 (a million or more on deposit) you can get a Forex dome.

 
TraderHewitt

Here it is according to how I have been taught/understand it

Futures:

Limit orders sit on the centralized exchange which is why there is accurate volume and level 2 data showing _how many_ sit at a price. (note you can see volume no trader in the world knows who)
Stop orders (buy/sell/tp/sl) sit with your broker as they are executed as market orders***

Limit orders are filled by the exchange using market orders coming in from brokers.

All orders work when client is not connected.

Normal FX Brokers (MT4 ECN, TOS, TradeStation, etc):

All orders sit on the brokers server, as there is no centralized exchange. Here limit orders are still executed with spread, and done by your brokers servers. There is some level 2 available, it might be only from your broker, but again, no trader in the world knows whose orders they are.

All orders work when your client is not connected.

Apiary:

As Alveo connects directly to the LP, there is no broker server, so orders are all executed on the client. No orders work when the client is not connected. This is how it was explained in Shawns tech update. However this may have changed, as there are reports of SL's being honored when client is closed, and I have done it myself too.

-------------------------

No one else (traders) knows where you stop orders are, there is no central record of stop orders in any market I know off, and where stop orders sit is just conjecture (see below). Pay no attention to bs about how banks actually know where you stops are.

Thus, in all cases your broker can see your orders, this will always be the case, as at some point there must be a server that is mapping orders to clients, even in futures when the limit is on the exchange, they need to know who submitted it, and it goes through your broker so they could record it anyways.

Does it matter?

So yes, a broker in any market could personally spike that market to take out your stops. They could simply print fake data and "scam" your stop into being taken. However, in the age of the internet it is trivial to see if this happening by simply comparing your brokers chart to underlying market, trivial in centralized markets like stocks or futures, more tricky in fx, where there are occasionally bigger price differences, but in general if you keep getting an odd spike that shows on your your broker and not others, and don't insist on trading some thin exotic, its simple .. change brokers to a reputable one.

>>brokers can and will manipulate the price of a stock to grab stop loss orders
>>or produce fake outs in order to grab your stocks at a cheaper price before continuing which ever direction

Could brokers in any market manipulate the underlying price do this? Of course, if they trade enough volume, which could be little in illiquid stocks, or significant in fx.

But think about it, an individual broker would have to trade against the entire world to push that market to take out a clients stop, and as the client is likely to be a retail with a tiny stop, what use is that to them? They would have so much volume on your sl wouldn't come close to covering their position, and if they used your stop to enter a position, what use in a 0.01 to them?

The myth that brokers deliberately take out your stops arises from a valid trait of all markets - liquidity hunting.

In order for big traders to fill their large orders without moving market against them, they need to find places where there will be a lot of stop orders (buy/sell/sl) the other way.

As obviously in general it is not known where every individual traders stop orders are (your broker does but this is not public info) where can they do this?

By targeting locations where its known there will be a high concentration of these orders, typically swing points and S&R.

Retail traders especially tend to always put stops behind swing points and at S&R, and are afaik the main ones trading the "breakout" of a swing point, i.e as market comes to a swing low and breaks the low, retail traders enter with sell stops, professional traders entered higher up to avoid the trap.

Thus, at these points there is a greater chance of liquidity, in the example above a swing low means sell orders (breakout sellers and longs stopping out with sell market orders) under the low. Thus if a big trader wants to go long, he will do it here, he places an iceberg (limit order which reloads, so he bids 25 then as soon as its filled bids anther 25 etc, but smarter than this, its hard to see and obviously automated)

He does this until all the sell stops are absorbed, and all stop loses there have executed, and as we all know, when a market runs out of sellers, it goes up.

And wala, a "false" breakout and a bunch of posters in forums all around the world complaining that their broker is hunting the stops, big banks are targeting them, bla bla bla

Lots of posts in forums of people trying to "hide" their stop as you mentioned, by not placing it with broker,but using a EA etc, the irony is they still place the soft stop is the same place, so it makes no difference, as they are not being targeted personally, but just playing the wrong game.

Of course, it is not always going to be the case, sometimes the big traders just get run over if there market orders at those points are too many, or they won't always be there. But this is why pro's try enter higher up, they want room to work a scratch if there is a trap, and likely use the selling there to take off partial profits too.

Ditto for entering a position and going immediately into drawdown, aside from entering into S&R or at a swing point like above, this quite commonly happens I think because of natural market motion than anything devious by brokers, traders wait for ma's and macds and whatever to all line up, by the the time this happens market has simply moved too far in one direction to attract any more order flow (and definitely not significant professional order flow), so when entering at a point where its unlikely more people will buy/sell after you (the only reason u profit - others buy or sell after you) its common to go into drawdown immediately, at least until market has gone the other way enough to become attractive again (could be just a small pullback, but painful to drawdown immediately)

I agree with Allen, one must be careful what one reads, lots of bs out there, mostly the blind leading the blind, and one must take everything with a pinch on salt, especially stuff about the "big bad banks", I think its mostly bs, very few of these experts have ever actually traded at an institutional desk and have any clue how they really trade. All we know is how the market behaves as a result (traps).

*** the exception I know of if NT8 volume stops, these are executed on the client

 
robunited

Let's cut this short

- CFD's ... completely decentralized, at the mercy of the broker

- FX, with LP's as we have with Apiary ... somewhat centralized, closer access to real data
- Futures, Stocks i.e. CME, Nasdaq ... centralized

... when you get the real volume/contract numbers, it's centralized.

It still does not take away the issue how large money can always move price & stops around ;-)

 
robunited

Hewitt: I agree with Allen, one must be careful what one reads, lots of bs out there, mostly the blind leading the blind, and one must take everything with a pinch on salt, especially stuff about the "big bad banks", I think its mostly bs, very few of these experts have ever actually traded at an institutional desk and have any clue how they really trade. All we know is how the market behaves as a result (traps).

Good points!

 
TGI

... so Apiary can see all of the Apiary traders orders right?... but that's about it...