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Ready to throw in the towel

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Ready to throw in the towel

Sometime during my Gold 1 endeavors it seemed like everything started to really click. My daily pip count soared into the stratosphere. I had set a goal for 40-50 pips per day, but I was hitting 100, 125, even 150+ and for me, that was outstanding. I quickly brought my account into the black and passed to Gold 2.

Almost simultaneously, everything fell to pieces. No worries, everyone has a bad day, right? Then it became a bad 2 days, 3 days... but then a few days were good, so I figured I was back in the swing of things.


I have reached a point of frustration that has had me seriously considering throwing in the towel. And I posted my frustration in the forum (or perhaps I should say, vented, ranted.)

I originally posted my rant in another thread, started by one of our esteemed colleagues, @jrh. Along with him, several others offered insights and words of encouragement. Somewhere in that process, I've had some breakthroughs, not in my success, but in my thinking. I thought it would be valuable to others who are inevitably going to reach the same impasse and likewise consider throwing in the towel. And since this is a topic of its own, I thought it would serve others best to move this to its own thread.

I contacted @jrh to my plan, which is to restart this conversation on its own thread. To maintain the original conversation I thought the thing to do is to copy/paste those posts and recreate the conversation here, to which @jrh has graciously agreed to assist. Anyone else who is plugged into that conversation is highly encourage to copy/paste their contributions as well.

Many thanks to everyone for their valuable contributions!

The original thread is located at:

Sun, 06/04/2017 - 3:05pm

And here is the original rant I posted... (pretty gloomy day, it was...)

JRH - that is outstanding news! I'm very happy for you.

I, on the other hand, am on the verge of throwing in the towel. I'm getting slaughtered. Nothing I do turns out. I was nursing some nice gains on USD/CAD just this afternoon, for example. (Finally, had a trade going in my favor.) I stepped away from it for 10 minutes. When I came back it had turned back on me, stopped out all my layers. Some were gains, some were losses. Net result? Given the rest of the day, I'm down another 56 pips. Ever since I hit Gold 2 it has been like this. I'm to the point I don't know if it is even possible to make money (much less, a living) doing this.

I have no idea how you can be winning pips, when 90% of the trades I place, at the instant I place it move against me. Think I'm kidding? Yesterday, I had a sell trade on. The pair kept rising, against me... up... up... up.

I said to myself, "I know how to stop it. I'll put in a buy right above this line." I placed my buy trade (now obviously at this point, I'm not trading out of making sense. I was just placed the trade because I was exasperated.) and BAM! It was instantaneous! The pair started moving back down. So I canceled my "stupid" buy trade, since it was just for fun. Instantly, the pair rises and I'm stopped out.

I've tried, setting my stops wide, give it room to breath. So I lose big.

So I try setting my stops tight. Keep my losses small, the winners will take care of themselves. Right?

No. I get so many small losers, I can't overcome it.

Nothing works. I've been at it for more than 7 months. I have no more idea what to do than the man on the moon.

You mentioned "surrendering to the market's will." I have no idea what that means, when the market appears to be climbing, and within 10 minutes has willed itself into a bearish maneuver. Over, and over, and over again, I'm watching it happen.

Did I mention I'm frustrated? I think that is the kindest emotional label I can attach at the moment.

Yes, I'm venting. At least posterity can read this and know that it can be pretty trying.



Hello Brainj2. I have similar feelings niw that I fianally made it to gold 1. I have been scalping and that has helped me a lot but lately I am down $150 and soI need to bring my account up and be a succesful trader. If any one here would have a sugestion , hope it will help me too.good luck to you.


I've had days where I scored thousands of pips and then days of negative thousands of pips. you need to realize the best traders in the world are only 50 to 60% correct. I think your expectations are too high. obviously you are on the right track to get into gold. you just need to tweak your strategy and find out the difference BTW your winners and losers. no one said trading is easy. to succeed you need endurance and realistic goals . if I think I am ranting. I am and you started the ranting so I blame you. good luck and don't give up on yourself


Hi Mr B,

I confirm that I both endorse and support this wonderful selfless post of yours 100%!

Believe me when I declare that Mr B's motivation to provide this forum has no hidden or self serving agenda behind it.
It was created passionately with the sole purpose of helping others to succeed and grow exponentially throughout the Apiary Fund process. This is a very noble and praiseworthy move indeed!

To reach a finishing line alone is a wonderful feeling, but very empty and selfish. But reaching it together with others is without a doubt is the ultimate and most rewarding experience. It means that those of us who are ahead need to slow down so that those who weaker can catch up . . . at times we may even have to carry some one to the finishing line.


Good luck Mr B!


@c517 - at first I didn't think you were ranting, but since you said you were, then I take your word for it! LOL! But you're absolutely right - I think my expectations were too high (boy, the market has a way of solving that problem!) Yeah I had a few good weeks, and I thought I had this figured out. Phew was I wrong! I can only conclude, the market conditions those 2-3 weeks were just right, and I happened to jump in at just the right time on a series of trades. But since then, in my Gold 2 days, the market has behaved entirely differently and has slapped me silly. Thank you, I appreciate the feedback!


Another of my posts from the other thread, just to help maintain the context:

@jrh - I appreciate your input. And I will look at the trading plan. (I actually already got your trading plan you shared before. Maybe this is different?)

At any rate... I wanted to post that because I think it is important (for people who may be reading this a year from now, perhaps, wondering what it is like) to communicate that, this isn't easy.

And I will say this, and I think this is crucial. And this is something only fellow traders really understand. My family can empathize, but they don't get what I'm about to say.

The silver lining is this. As badly as it is going, I'm actually holding the losses down. Its just that with so may, they do tend to pile up. But, speaking statistics... my average win is greater than my average loss, by a 10% margin! And that margin would be greater except I tried widening out those stop losses on a few trades in a row, and ended up getting really sucker punched.

So, yeah, I've been losing a lot of my trades, but I have been keeping the losers mostly small. When I first started with Apiary, I was losing and I was losing BIG.

All of this, and I'm down 16% which is NOT the end of the world.

What it is, is a time of stepping back and rethinking and refocusing. Cuz I'm thinking, I don't know how in the world this gentleman from South Africa is doing it, but he's doing it. And by golly, if he can do it, so can I!!!!

I do appreciate your encouragement, and I will read your material. And I'm going to do me some thinking.

I'll keep you posted. (Well, when I have something more positive to say. LOL.)


And finally, this one...

I can share something positive, even though I haven't gained back my pips. Doing some post-mortem on my trades, the end result is, that I broke even!!!

Yes, you read that right. Although in the space of less than 30 minutes the pair I was trading took a 114 pip tumble, I came out alive. And I'm going to share how.

(First, the 56 pips down for the day at this point was due to other problems earlier in the day. Not this trade. So when I say I came out even, I mean, on this trade. I essentially came out of it clean.)

What I did was, I entered trade #1. After it rose about 12 pips, I placed trade #2. Simultaneously, using the new support/resistance points, I moved up my Stop Loss on trade #1. So now, it was a risk-free trade.

I kept repeating this, until I had 6 separate trades, on the same currency pair. I kept moving my stop losses up, where it made sense, to maintain a risk-free open position overall.

And that is what is exciting to me! It totally worked!

Yeah, I would have loved to have come out of it with the 100+ pips I was anticipating. And yeah, I was crushed when I step out of the room, only to come back and see that sucker had dive-bombed into the floor beneath my desk.

But in the final analysis, the overall strategy worked, because when the dust had settled I came out of a 114 pip tumble and BROKE EVEN.

So I'm dusting off my britches, and I've started on it again. Same pair. Cuz you know what? It was just retracing. That's what they do. Albeit not always so dramatically!

I'm back in the saddle, placing my trades, stair-stepping my way. My chart analysis says USD/CAD has a ways to go, so I'm going to ride it as long and as far as I can.

But most of all... protect from losses.


p.s. As to how @jrh manages so many pips, I remain mystified. Hopeful, but mystified. Mister, you are the MAN!!!


I wouldn't waste time comparing yourself to anyone on the forums. I have noticed people posting and copying from other sites to the forums. I have Googled certain statements and have been taken to forex education sites. I wish ppl would just say they went to this site for whatever information, but that's on them. personally I watch shawn lucas and I am amazed by him. even his demo account is at 70k from 10k and he is just messing around with that demo trading account. Anyway it seems you are just in a drawdown and you will be ok once you get a couple winning trades under your belt. good luck


@c517 - thank you!

Now, for anyone who has been following this thread... allow me to say that last week ended on a positive note, but not in terms of "winning trades." Quite the opposite. I ended in the red, so much so that I decided to stay out of the market on Friday. (Well, I dabbled, and lost, and then decided to stay out.)

So how could it have ended on a positive note, you might ask?

Because of another breakthrough in my thinking. I realized something. The market does not always behave the same way. There are lots and lots of twists and turns and varying conditions. I've noticed that (to me, it seems) there are, at this point in time, a lot of currency pairs in something of an "indecision" mode. Like they're at the bottom or top of a trend, and turning, maybe reversing, or maybe continuing the trend. But for now, indecisive. That is a whole different market from one that is definitely trending, which was the environment when I had such a great 2-3 weeks span during my Gold 1 efforts.

That was the first thing I noticed. The second thing was this. The current market, because of the indecisive behavior, is doing a lot of pretty violent JUMPS going up and down. I can post some charts to help illustrate. The result has been, you could set stops out 100 pips and get triggered. (At least I don't see a way around that.)

But, and I'm still getting to my second point, which is, as "dangerous" as this market has been to me these past two weeks or so in Gold 2... Yes, I have lost a lot of trades... but I noticed something. In the past, when I've experienced these losing streaks... I lost BIG TIME.

But now... and here's the point... I've learned to keep my losses small. Therefore, though I have had such a lot of losing trades in a row, yet, my losses are not that large. Which tells me, this training is paying off in a big way.

Surely we are all going to face market conditions that are going to cause a lot of frustration and some losses.

But if we focus on RISK MANAGEMENT then setbacks come what may, but we will live to trade another day!

And THAT is the lesson that I think I have learned from all this. And what a valuable lesson it is.


I have added three screen shots to illustrate the violent reversals that were happening the other day. You can see the reversals by looking at the M15 chart. Look not only at the size of the candle bodies, but the wicks included!

That represents a tumble of around 33 pips, and then rising around 50 pips, only to lose almost all of that, and then within another 30 minutes it is back to just almost where it was. In the right-most candles we can see it tumbled off 70 pips from the highest peak.

I messed around too long with that, until finally I wised up and realized this market is outside my current skill set.

Shifting over to look at the D1 timeframe, I interpreted that as a possible bearish reversal, from the previous 6 rising candles. But in the end, what I see right now is, indecision. It could continue the upward trend, or it could go ahead and fall. Although, I do have to say, I see an upward rising channel since the beginning of the year. It hit resistance at around 1.3535 stalling its upward momentum.

So yeah, overall, from the technical analysis point of view good potential for upward mobility.

Having said all that... looking at D7 tells me the likely direction is bullish. It is sitting on support at the moment. My guess is, I see very good potential for 250+ pips in the bullish direction, just to get back to the peak from 4 weeks ago.

Who knows? I'm not sure how to play this. I'm just rambling.

USDCAD M15 2017-06-02.png USDCAD D1 2017-06-02.png USDCAD D7 2017-06-04.png

I am totally overwhelmed! I have never done this before, but I have learned a lot of good stuff. I am in fear of messing up even on the training site!

I not even sure where to enter and place my stops! Gosh, I don't want to lose big in the pratice or real one, if I ever get funded!

Frozen in fear right now!


@hmegagreen - you're not alone. But listen... there is nothing to fear. All you're doing is learning Kung Fu. Apiary, the Beeline, is teaching you "moves." You'll learn to kick high. You'll learn to kick low. You're going to do trades that have to succeed in 5-10 minutes. You're going to do some that are required to go for 24 hours.

When I was in your shoes, I lost so much, man, if it was real money. Whew! It doesn't matter. You have to DO before you begin to learn.

When I was in your shoes, I was losing, and didn't even know what I was doing wrong. That's how I first noticed, that, hey, I'm actually learning something! How? Because, I was still losing big time... but with one important difference... I could tell you what I did wrong.

Its one thing to lose, and have no idea why, no idea what to work on. An entirely different thing to lose, but understand what you need to develop.

I figured out, the reason the Beeline puts you through all those different approaches... is NOT to teach you good trading habits. It is to teach you there are DIFFERENT approaches to trading. Instead of just allowing you to gravitate to something, they expose you to short-term, mid-term, long-term trading. Those each are a very different animal. So learn them all.

Later in the Beeline you will start learning more about the money/risk management. That's when you'll develop your own trading style. Hopefully being able to blend several of the "Kung Fu moves" you've mastered along the way!

If you are frozen in fear, then that is great. Because you've identified your first opponent. You have to get over your fear. It might be the only way to do that is by getting your "you know what" handed to you, after the market has slapped you silly and thrown you against the wall. Don't ask me how I know.

Get up, and get back in the fight. Learn your kung fu. It's fun.

p.s. one other very important tip - go into Alveo and setup your default trade settings. Use 0.01 for your lot size. You're only going to lose $0.05 or $0.10 - very small amounts. Don't look at the money. Just worry about the pips. You'll take a lot of stress off if you do that. Later on, you'll learn how to adjust for the $ value. But for now, just do pips. That is my advice.


hm, you are in the perfect place with the perfect mindset. you don't have any bad habits and if you stick with beeline, you will be put in the right mentality. I have been trading for a long time and I watched, read, and went over every module atleast 3 times, even though of the most of the information was known to me. you just need to go over the information and test the strategies til one clicks for you. I would also go over the webinar provided on the homepage. Todd, Curtis, Rex, Nate and Shawn are awesome and down to earth people. Their teaching style is perfect for those that want to learn. good luck to you


Hey Brian - thanks for this thread. I got a bit despondent not so long ago in Gold 2, when I was down 20%, after allowing for a few big losses. I desperately wanted to press the reset button, and start out fresh. But one can't do that in Gold 2. It was a mental battle for me not to think "I have to dig myself out of a hole", but rather to tell myself "You are starting out fresh today, from this present level", as if the reset button had been pressed. That way I could approach trading with a positive, confident mindset.

Your determination is so evident. Like c517, I watch Shawn and am equally amazed. You are gonna do it. All the best.


HI Brian,
Thanks for sharing your struggles. trading is a tough game and very few succeed. Beeline is a good training program and one learns ones faults quickly. Set realistic goals and once achieved stop trading. Most traders make a lot of money and give it back because they get greedy. I do there same too. if you are losing constantly stop trading and check your rules. maybe you need to tweak them a bit. Good Luck and happy trading.


brianj2: " I'm not sure how to play this."

Just chart it out. Looks like the major trend is down, however there has been a long slow upward grind (correction) going on for the last year (See green parallel lines). Within these green lines I have plotted the current upward path in red parallel lines. I have also shown a possible target where the green and red lines intersect. This is the point of congruence. If you want to play this market look for alignment in two or three shorter time frames for a good long entry.

This is all we have to go on. The market is in a long slow upward corrective grind until proven otherwise.

Svein Solli


Just like you, i am new to trading. I have been studying trading and tried for 7 months now. At this point i feel that its beginning to turn from loosing to know...staying alive. Like a constant battle against the market.

I have been searching the Internet for info, listened to a ton of self proclaimed professional traders talking for hours upon hours on what to look for, buy this and buy that "and you'll be profitable". Most of them are just full of BS. They are nothing more that sock puppets...doing what ever they have order to make anyone buy their strategy, that works for them. Blindly people buy their system and try it out...and fail. Angry and really pissed off...many give up...or turn to another system...and the next one...and the next. And so on.

In order to get a system to work...we have to give our selfs time to adjust to it. Make sure...that we really understand what to look for. What is the proper signal to enter a trade. Follow the rules...firstly, secondly and thirdly and so on. Its impossible to give any guaranties, but it can absolutely improve the chance of making the right choice. Learning from our mistakes.

Todd said "i am the best in the world in my system" He has his own system that works for him. So do Shawn. They show us what they do and talk a lot about it, trying to make us understand how it works. We can absolutely try to learn and adapt to their systems, but it will take time...its not learned just like over a week or two. Maybe not even for a year or two. Its totally dependent on the individual. Mindset. How easily each one of us can take in the information and remember every single step of the way...and do the same thing every single time. Again and again....and again.

For me the solution was when Todd said..."you have to find you`re own style and system". A system that only you heart. And use it for all that its worth. Where and when its possible to use it...what instruments it works on. Try to use and adjust indicators to fit your own settings, that will help making the right choices. It will take some time, but if you stick to it, you will see that it will help you. There will be days, weeks or even months with nothing but losses. On a demo...its no problem because its a demo. That is where we can make those mistakes. But we have to learn from them...or at least try to learn and move on.

Trading is simple. The push of a of a mouse. The challenge is in the direction. Up or down.

Why do we fall? Because we have to learn how to get up.

There are literally millions of systems out there...and many of them are profitable, but is the one you pick, the right one for you? Can you actually see the opportunity the system provides at any given moment? It takes time.

Don`t let the market beat you down...or out of trading. Find your own style or system and fine tune it in every way possible to make it work for you. That will make you consistent...and profitable. Try to find web pages on line that can provide you with valuable news that can help you make the right choice for one or more instruments. Use these forums for information of any kind to help you on your way. Anything goes in love and war...why not in trading too.

I have got several systems on my mt4. Some i have paid for but most of them i got totally free. I have found two or three that actually works. Now its only up to me to keep using them...adapting and learning what to look for and trade. And they are very simple to use. I will post my findings, but not before im 110% sure that it works for me. can try to do this:
Add one EMA 20 period, prized high, and one EMA 20, Prized Low. That will show you a channel on the chart. See how the candles break through the EMAs. If the breaking candle close outside the channel, there is an opportunity to go up or down for some time. There you can make a pending order...just a few pips above or below the closed candle. (like 2 or 3 pips) The SL goes just under or above the opposite EMA...and the TP is 1:1 or 1:2 or longer if you want to. 2 or 3 orders can absolutely be favorable. This can be used on any instrument on any time frame. I have not tried scalping with this...but maybe its possible too.

Try to study the charts with these settings...and see the possibilities. Im sure you will make some discoveries.

The best of luck.

Regards Svein.


@heidi - i know what you're saying. The way I look at it, I'm down around 16%, so $160 give or take. I'm thinking, if I can't dig myself out of a $160 hole, then I don't have any business trading real money anyway. So it's all good. I just need to learn my stuff. And practice.

@alan_6 - pretty amazing that you would do that analysis for me. That is awesome. The only confusing part is when you said that the major trend is down. It looks up to me. I wonder what you're basing that on? But thank you for going to such great detail!

Everyone, I appreciate all the good advice. These forums are an indispensable tool. Sometimes, we need a new perspective. It has revolutionized my trading. I hope all the newcomers take that seriously and read these ideas. Even months later. I've done that.

Best to all... buzzzzzzzzz


brianj2: The old major uptrend is looks to be over. The Impulsive Wave down is our first clue that a new downward trend is beginning. The second clue that a new downward trend is underway is the shallow slow grind upward corrective wave. Shallow waves where multiple bars overlap each other is a sure way of identifying corrective waves. The next clue will come once price breaks down below the green parallel channel. Until proven otherwise this is the best analysis.



What do you mean by EMA 20 period prized high and low?


Hello JRH, I feel your pain. I too was ready to throw in the towel after reaching silver 1. For 3 days all I had was loosing trades, 4% drawdown on my account, moving my stops running after trades ectera!!!!. then realized that because I was so focus on meeting the requirements I was not taking what the market was giving, I was entering trades without following my plan frustration, frustration. So I paused pulled my emotions together, made an assessment. I looked for urrency pairs whoes ADTR (average daily trading range) that fit my fit the silver 1 requirements and waited for pull backs, reveresal and momentum and I had better results. One of the thing that helped was finding currency pairs that trade in tandem eg. the EURs and also pairs that move opposite to each other. I waited for break outs practice money management requirements.



EMA 20 x 2
Set one at PRICE high, and the other at PRICE low.


Svein Solli

thank you for your share.

i agree with that approach you have taken.

keep up the good work, you are on the right track.

you may add, know when not to trade.


Thanks for sharing guys. I should be in Gold 1 next week. Coming through Silver 2 was a major achievement and a turnaround in results, after contemplating throwing in the towel. I told myself that I will give it 3 years, after all is that not the length of time you spend at University, or an apprenticeship, why would I think I can master this is 4 months? I also thought to myself if I throw in the towel what else can I do at the age of 53 that offers as much life changing opportunity as Forex Trading?

Silver 2 made me use tight stops, 20 pips is the requirement you must lose more than 20, but since then I keep it between 3-6 pips, for some reason I hate double-figure pip losses. So I get more losses than winners but my win/loss ratio keeps me in profit most days. I don't set a pip target each day. My best is 323, but that day the market offered me those pips, today just 13 pips. the other day -10. My target each day now is time at the computer, at least 2-4 hours.

One of Winston Churchill's speeches contained just 9 words " Never Give Up, Never Give Up, Never, Never, Never"

Hope somebody reminds me of these words when it's my turn to feel like throwing in the towel.

Chin up



that is the winning spirit.

glad to see you making progress.

that is the part of beeline that makes learn and be better prepared , and ready for any market conditions.

I'll go right along with Mr. Churchill quote.

thanks for the share.

keep up the good work.


Brian Hang in there and don't give up if you still want it. The market is just talking to you and saying you must do something a little different. I personally have gotten funded had a couple of checks then missed a month Got back on track for 10 months in a row with some nice checks. Then they changed the liquidity and ruined alveo as I knew it. I lost almost 20% of my funded account and realized they would soon shut me off if it continued.I reduced my lot size to .01 lots and gradually worked my way back. I had to learn how to trade long term because the high frequency scalping no longer worked for me. Once I learned to trade naked charts properly the equity curve got back to a nice 45 degree slope. Money management is all important and I guess I needed the lesson. Good luck and I hope you stick around.


Good to see so much support in the hive!


Try using a stop purchase with 30 pip stop loss and 60 pip target above a rising market. Good Luck!


@alan_6 - again, I really appreciate such detailed analysis. I'm going to take the time to review what you said. Thank you for adding value.

@danjsilve - I like this quote "Hope somebody reminds me of these words when it's my turn to feel like throwing in the towel." And this is the very reason I posted my story, for those of us who feel the pain. Ok, a little bit because I just wanted to whine.

@norm - that is amazing insight! Wow, I'd say that is word from the trenches. So I'm sitting here scratching my head, wondering, what am I whining about? Dang! You are very inspiring. Thanks man! That's funny too, that you mention trading naked charts. That's what I've been going after personally. I did leave the Bollinger Bands and RSI. They don't get in my way; I ignore them most of the time, but occasionally find them useful when I'm in the trenches having a knife fight and taking scalps. (Or, you know, taking a beating.)

@kennylambert - I know! That's what I'm talking about. The forum is a great place to get some support and good ideas.

@joed53 - 30 pips... wow! I'm crying if I lose 3. I'm a tightwad I guess. I appreciate you pitching in!


Norm, what do you mean by "they changed the liquidity"? What exactly did they do?



I guess I should let Norm speak for himself, but I'm going to venture a guess and see how it turns out when he gets to it.

In my mind, liquidity will determine first of all the spread. Lower liquidity would mean higher spreads, making it less profitable (i.e. much more difficult) to do scalping. That is why I choose to trade pairs with lower spreads. Its really hard to make any profit when as soon as you place your trade, you're automatically in the hole 3, 4 or even 6, 8 pips.

This would probably be something doing about the liquidity provider they're routing orders through.

Secondly, the liquidity is going to affect how smoothly buys and sells are moving. Lower liquidity would cause big swings, or jumps really, in price. So minute by minute, you might see a big jump up, and a big jump down.

Liquidity is all about matching up buyers and sellers. If you can't find enough sellers, and you're trying to buy, your order might not get filled where you want. So that would be a third effect of lower liquidity. Your limit orders are probably safe. But if I understand correctly, stop losses become market orders when triggered. Meaning your SL might get triggered, but due to lower liquidity, not be filled so quickly. The pair could move against you 20 pips (just to pick a number out of thin air) between being triggered until it is filled.

I'd say that's my 2 cents, but it might not even be worth that much. Maybe at least this can trigger a discussion that will turn into some education for all of us.


Thanks, Brian. That all makes sense. So either spreads increased, or the liquidity decreased causing more jumps, or our liquidity providers don't have a big enough pool of buyers/sellers for orders to get "instantly" filled. Is that a good summary of what you siad? Look forward to what Norm has to say too.


I tend to trade the London/NY sessions because it happens to fall into my day pattern where I live. I avoid the Sydney/Tokyo sessions because they affect my sleep. It just happens the London/NY sessions have higher liquidity and tighter spreads for trading, especially for day/scalping trades which I find necessary to do to accomplish the 100 trades required in the Apiary system in a reasonable time frame.
But even in these higher liquidity sessions, there can be plenty of chop to give you enough ffffrustration that you want to bring the hammer down on your monitor. I would just close down for the day. I find this very effective in dealing with the ire.


Thank you everyone for your insightful comments and giving us the benefit of your experience, this is so useful!

Thank you @ Brianj2 for starting of this valuable thread!

@ Joed53, would you mind sharing your tf and strategy please?

@4xNorm, you truly are a great inspiration! and it helps knowing that other bees have been through these negative times, but then came out so well on the other side!

I feel really blessed to be part of this wonderful community.


To clarify changed the liquidity I was referring to liquidity providers. It used to be that when you hit a market sell the order went through at the price that was showing on alveo at the time that you clicked and was the same when you exited the trade. Once they changed things, a market order suddenly had a time delay that could change your entry or exit by several pips. I used to trade in fast markets ( news) and kill it every time. Now I usually avoid the first 3 - 5 mins of a news event and use entry orders instead of market orders. I do miss the old days but we as traders must adapt to current market conditions and realize that it is part of our job and not be a whiner that gets left behind.


Thanks Norm... I love your attitude... no need whining about things you can't fix.

@sandie - you're most welcome. And yes, it is a wonderful community. I've been helped so much that it has caused me to want to participate more. Which is good, because I'm usually more of a stay to myself kind of person. Anyway, what motivated me to start this thread is that I thought I'm probably not the only person who is going to feel this way at some point.

I have some great news to report! I've been breaking my slump. Yesterday I brought in over 100 pips. I have learned a very valuable lesson. Namely, there will be rough patches. Focus. Keep losses minimized. Live to trade another day. Think of that string of losers as "probing the market." When conditions are ripe, jump in with both feet. Always keep risk management in the forefront, because if you hold your losers tight, then just let your winners run.

i'm going to keep practicing the above. And Norm, your story from above, I just hope you realize how inspiring it is. I'm not going to forget that one. See my little Monopoly Man picture over there? I'm tipping my hat to you.


i didnt read all the comments here but i would have ro say, probably just a drawdown. with that said when we're in a drawdown i always start looking back on my trades to make sure its the market causing my drawdown and not me making little mistakes with my plan. ie. taking trades, targets not per my plan or moving stop losses etc. if all checks out and the drawdown isnt more than what ypubexperienced in your backtesting then all you can do is keep trading your plan and you'll come out of it. good luck and hang in there


@ron.sublett - i appreciate the input. It reinforces what I've concluded. I've actually succeeded by keeping my losses minimized while the market threw me around a little bit. Starting to gain some traction now - I'll report on that when the time is right. Since, you know, my mom did always tell me not to count my chickens before they hatch.


Hi Brian and wonderful company of friends.

About the Liquidity providers,

The following mail may have in influenced the management of the Apiary Fund to change brokers:

I sent a message of concern to two directors and the help desk which read:

From: John Hopkins []
Sent: 23 May 2017 04:24 PM
To: ''; 'Barbara Evans'
Subject: Exorbitant Brokerage Costs

Hello to both of You,

I shall be grateful if you look into the matter raised and posted to the help desk – see message below.

Warm regards

John Hopkins

Subject: Exorbitant Brokerage Costs

Good day to You,

I shall be most grateful if you will look into the following and furnish me with an explanation:

Today 05/23/2017, I simultaneously placed the exact amount 2 X Mini Lot SELL orders for GBP/USD on both on my self-funded account with AAAFX and Alveo’s Demo platform. Before exiting both trades I noticed that the profit margins varied substantially. AAAFX’s profit was $10.57 (54.6 pips) whereas the Alveo demo reflected a profit of only $0.50 (2.80 pips.).
You have got to admit that the stark difference is cause for concern. I know that the Apiary Fund uses an independent Broker House. Hopefully I am wrong, but I cannot help but feel that they are hopelessly uncompetitive!
Your consideration of the foregoing concerns and your investigation shall be sincerely appreciated.

Warm regards

John Hopkins

Kind regards

John Hopkins
TEL: 27+44 696 5962
CELL: 27+73 654 9847

In another mail sent to Mrs Barbara Evens I Pointed out my concern that in my candid opinion there are not not enough currency pairs to trade and that it would be great if the were to include the Equity Indexes, Commodities and Exotic Currency Paiirs. I feel that the more options of choice available to us , the greater the potential to increase profits.

So long for now.


@jrh - you're awesome!


Thanks, Norm.


This also got me thinking about managing expectations. If you go to University I think on average it takes 3 years to become very competent in your chosen field, of course, a Doctor, A Vet, and Architect can take 7 years. Apprenticeships here in the UK are around 4 years. The traditional model of starting a business, unless it has changed. Is First Year is a loss. The second year, break even and the Third year you finally move into profit. So How long are you, are we, am I going to give this?


This is a very uplifting thread. I've been feeling a little discouraged lately too.

I blew through bronze and silver, but I've been stuck on Gold 1 for months now. I think I'm finally learning how to minimize losses (though I screwed up a little tonight). It takes great discipline to let the market prove you wrong (when you "know" its going to reverse in just a couple of pips).


Hi Brian,

I see that it is very busy you end and I am glad - The need for help is huge - thanks for bridging this gap!

I thought I would share the following with your thread, the catch is that if your visitors want the attachments they must visit my latest forum for this powerful content . . .

See the index below:

“Bread & Butter” or “Bread & Crumbs”

Hi to YOU Super Traders,

I EXPERIENCED THE WORST NIGHTMARE in my limited trading career. Yesterday, we in the Western Cape –South Africa experienced one of the most vicious storms bringing with it chilly air, gale force winds, rain and snow in the mountains. THEN DISASTER SRUCK! MY internet service provider’s whole network collapsed from 14h00 and eventually got sorted out only this morning at 09h15. This occurred before I could tighten up my stops with the XAU/USD. Wow! What a disaster. The pair had a deep drawback and took out my stops. I am resolved to recover this drawback and then some. Please cross your fingers for me – thank you.

The notebook which I have attached is a book which has had an enormous impact on my trading career and the clued-up contents helped me to pocket big profits. So I thought to myself why not share it?

The Index of the “THE CHART READERS HANDBOOK – by TIM MORGE” follows:

INDEX: (Unfortunately the handbook does not have an index)

Giving Yourself Time and Room to be Right on Your Trade

How to become an Expert at Reading Price Movement

Stalking Major Moves: How to see the Signs of Where the Market is Moving

How a Professional Trader Builds a Case for Entering a Trade

How a Professional e-mini Trader Finds Great Trades

How nto Train Your Eyes to “See” the Charts Like a Pro

Using Simple Box Formations for Big Trading Profits

Reading Gaps in Charts to Find Good Trades

The Ultimate Risk Management Tool: Equivalent Risk

Improving your Skills at Predicting Market Behavior

How to “See” the Trus Message of the Markets

How to Remain Confident even in Uncertain Markets

Taking Quick Profits VS. Letting it Run: “Bread and Butter” or “Bread and Crumbs”


It's comforting to hear there are other people who occasionally have a crisis of 'faith' I'm only just getting to the point where i see a glimmer.

From what I've read and heard , new traders throw strategies out too quickly, and good traders can turn a profit from a poor strategy.
I am trying to be aware of when I over react emotionally to losses which then doesn't afford me the opportunity to figure where I went wrong. Often on reflection I realise I am actually aware what I am doing is a risk (more so than the 'usual' risk) or that it doesn't fit the strategy I was originally planning to trade.
Taking screen shots and capturing why I took a trade was a good exercise for a while, but time consuming.

I feel like some part of my brain is recognising visual patterns but the messages it sends feel like non verbal 'hunches' or some type of emotion, hence frustration just disrupts this process.


i am stuck and struggling in gold 3 for 8 M O N T H S now, between 3 requirements
winning trades versus losing trades
maintaining positive trade expectancy
average win versus average loss
anyone out there P L E A S E H E L P !!!!!
with method , strategy, or whatever
thank you


I hope this helps I use todds HMA strategy on the 5min and 15min charts and bank profits as soon as the movement stalls.
I have had real problems lately with my internet provider causing me a number pf larher losses however in the last 30 days my account has grown by just over 8%.

I avoid the eur/gbp as it moves to slowly but trade the jpy pais and the gbp/aud most often but always sit and watch them as they move fast and can be cruel if they move against you. Once I am in profit I will not let it go negative even if I only make 1 pip.


I hope this helps I use todds HMA strategy on the 5min and 15min charts and bank profits as soon as the movement stalls.
I have had real problems lately with my internet provider causing me a number pf larher losses however in the last 30 days my account has grown by just over 8%.

I avoid the eur/gbp as it moves to slowly but trade the jpy pais and the gbp/aud most often but always sit and watch them as they move fast and can be cruel if they move against you. Once I am in profit I will not let it go negative even if I only make 1 pip.


@brethenson2 - I do have some advice, but maybe not the particular kind you're looking for, like some strategy or trading tidbits. That's because I've really been struggling in Gold 2, which is why I started this thread.

Anyway, where was I? Oh, my "advice."

This is actually fresh from where I'm at in my thought process, okay?

Back when I was still in silver, and gold 1, I noticed I was moving rather nicely along. Almost too fast, I actually began to think.

Too fast? How can we move through too fast?

I'm glad I asked. Too fast, because if I get through the Beeline too quickly, before I've had the opportunity to REALLY learn the art of trading Forex would not be a good thing.

Right now, I'm trading paper money. Sure, my emotions get all wrapped up in it. You'd think I had 1,000s of $$$ riding on every trade. But in the end, its just play.

But it is important play, because I'm learning a skill, a craft, an art. And it will pay off. But for it to pay off, and I mean, pay the bills, I'm going to have to be WAY better than I am now.

So it would be a disaster for me to skate through Gold 2 by some happenstance of particular conditions that let me slip on by. Because I know, as I know, as I know... that I'm not ready.

So, I'm going to slow down. Take a breather. Think about what I'm doing. (Because yesterday, I thought to myself, well, I actually said it out loud to myself, "I'm trading like a monkey!" I have no more idea what I'm doing than a monkey, to be perfectly honest. And it shows in the statistics.)

So yeah, it's a blow to the ego. We're all impatient and want to get to the gold at the end of the rainbow.

But, like I keep saying to myself, if you're not making it with the play money, you have no business playing with real money.

So my advice is: relax, enjoy, and learn. Work hard. Don't trade like a monkey. Figure it out. No one is going to be able to offer you a silver bullet. Find support and inspiration from these forums. The people here are great, and very supportive. You'll get there!


Very well put. If things aren't going well in a beeline account, switch to a sim account and practice your craft. As you said, flying through the beeline trading just to satisfy the requirements leaves you lacking when it gets to be show time because instead of learning from the tasks, making mistakes and correcting them, you are left with an empty tool chest. Nice thread you started and one I follow.


Thanks for all of your insight Brian, Great post I will also be following your thread.


There are so many good insights gained and shared here. I happened upon another thread that is precisely what I was talking about in my post from earlier today (06/08/2017 - 2:57pm) coming from Gold 3 achievers!

The gist of their advice is: slow down. Focus on your process. Develop your strategy. Be flexible, because the market changes constantly, so your strategy needs to be able to change to meet the changing conditions.

I highly recommend reading that thread for more:

@jrh - your tale of the power/web outage is a valuable lesson indeed. I've hit similar huge moves, when I didn't have a stop loss, and it hurt me real bad. One thing it motivated me to do was to setup my Alveo using default global variables, so that I automatically have a stop loss on every single trade I enter. I have mine set at 10 pips SL, 10 pips TP. Then, after creating the trade, I can adjust the levels to whatever I'm intending to do.

Best trading success to all you bees out there!

Pip gatherer-PG

Aim for 5 successful trades a day for 5 days at a time ( Monday to Friday)

That will make it easy


Hey Brianj2. Man, I thought I was the only one that felt like you described you felt. Today I was trading the eur usd and lost about 100 pips . Some , maybe all, the errors you say you've committed, I did them today. When things start to go wrong , it seems they stay wrong for the day. I kind of think that between losing a couple or three or four in a row, you start trading and pulling the trigger in desperation hoping that one or 2 trades now will pull me back to at least breakeven BUT usually that's just a pipe dream. It's like riding a bronc. Timing is everything and as soon as you get out of rhythm, well look out cause that ground coming at you right now. I try to discipline myself( and BTW, still really trying to make that work) by taking a breather or step away for a bit just to clear your head and begin to think right again. I am liking the things that are being taught here at Apiary and until I learn the "rules" there's going to be some rough rides ahead. Be thankful it's only "play" money. I think the goal is to follow the rules religiously and apply those money making principles!! Anyway, you're not alone. Looks like you've got lots of followers. Keep on pippin'.


I would add that following the rules is important but finding out what happens when you don't may be even more memorable . I have worked a concept of my own until my eyes bleed just to see if there is absolutely no way that I could be right in my approach to a trade . I scalp the 1M on the G/J and E/U mostly and I am stubborn about not looking for better opportunities on any given day , because I want to experience all the moves the market can make and fake in those pairs ....I started out placing one trade and then pacing in front of the laptop screen with knots in my stomach that it wasn't going to be a winning trade . Now I scalp the fast moving pairs like G/J and just adjust if I make a bad trade ...that in itself is a valuable learning experience , at least it has been for me ....and some days , the market is not predictable no matter what indicators you are using , so recognizing when to stay out has also been a huge learning curve to experience for me ...

For What its Worth


Just remember, what you lose can be recovered by continuing to trade, the market always looks like it is against you, but in reality, it is not! This is where your Apiary training comes into play; Discipline, Emotions, and Patience will turn your downturns into up-turns. I have been down $1,800 and come back to profit in time. So continue to trade and prosper! I have been with Apiary for 4 years and funded for 3 years. Good luck!


First lesson you must learn is don't chase pips.. It will bite you in the rearend.. Ill give ya prime example.. Today was like a rollercoaster on the GBP pairs in case nobody noticed.. Flash Crash and then started back up.. I was in like Flynn.. Heck at one point I had a 600-700 pip unrealized positive and a significant amount of profit.. Stupid me when my gut said pull the plug I didn't.. I paid for it.. In fact I paid hard for it.. Now Ive only been working on Alveo for this week starting.. I was up and down a li ttle break even but I should've booked my profits and run away quickly.. I expected things to turn around in the Japan open instead my trades reversed on me and I was down 200 pips at one point a couple hit Trailing stops.. Before London open I set some trades up and they were kinda iffy.. Charts all showed GBP pairs were headed down again.. But retracement took them out and yes I got the dreaded BLAMO hard stop and close out by the software due to losing 5%,... Where did I go wrong.. 2 reasons..

#1. I never should've tried to chase the pips I s hould have booked and walked with a huge nice profit which would've brought my equity curve back up and really adjusted my ratio on trades to the positive.. (I was around 55% going in)..
#2.. I decided what I THOUGHT was a no miss situation and overtraded the acct.. I violated even my own rules which is 1-2% per trade max risk.. I was trading .5 lots which amounts to 5% of the acct on a single trade which is a major no no.. I failed at the basic disciplinary level to stick to what works I was trying to offset losses I thought should've have happened and essentially martingaled which anybody who's traded awhile will tell you is asking for trouble in the long run.. It doesn't work in gambling and it really rarely works in trading..

Morale is I'm out for Friday now which isn't a bad thing.. I can keep working into and through Bronze maybe make it to Silver which will definitely force my hand because at the smaller acct level you have to stick to micro lots to keep to 1%.. Anyway Hope everybody has a good weekend.. Oh and that throw in the towel feeling.. In poker we call that going on tilt.. Its a bad thing.. As they've said if your frustrated better not to trade and rethink strategy its especially true when you get to real trading.. You may not make money if your not trading but remember you can lose it if your not paying attention and while that losing their money isn't as bad it will still cut into your own paycheck when they are paying you to trade meaning its better to make zero not trading then it is to trade and take a hit which costs Apiary and you in the end..


This is where my head was at "again" this week - the towel was in my hand. The last 3weeks have beatin me up.
And DON, I am with ya buddy!

Seems we want it so much that we cannot walk away when we should because for damn sake - the market should listen to us!! And it is telling us - don't you be telling me what do, I have a mind of my own!

I always love the quote - The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid. But it is hard to remember that sometimes & I suppose it is one of the lessons we must drive into our head & remember during these times.

The other lesson we seem to forget & was just stated. A PIP not traded is a PIP won during these times of emotional unrest.


I'm glad I didn't throw my towel away. I may need it to wrap around my neck! LOL... it's been a rough week. But it ain't over till its over, and right now I have a trade going that's showing a little green.

@okmortgageteam - "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid." That is awesome. It's actually pretty encouraging in one sense, because it means if there's a quote for it, then I'm not the first one to encounter this situation.

All of you who have posted... it's very encouraging to have so many contributors.

You know... hmmm... looking back over my week's stats... every day was a loser... but, there's still the silver lining that, except for one of those days, the losses are still minimal. So I really do hold out hope.

@don_johnson says "I would add that following the rules is important but finding out what happens when you don't may be even more memorable."

Those are very wise words. That, along with some other gold nuggets from the Gold III Bees are helpful.

I intend to start keeping track. A better trade log habit. But also, I think it will help me if I take time before each week to make an entry for each pair I intend to trade, to show my weekly target for that pair. And an Up/Down indicator. At the end of the week, revisit with an entry of actual price, and actual Up/Down indicator.

Over time this should enable me to assess my analysis department's track record. If I'm right on the weekly, then maybe I should look at more longer term trades. I suspect that I'm getting caught up in the heat of the moment and failing to handle it well.


I must say that this is a great forum . . . a place to let off some steam and feel human again.

Last night I attended a webinar entitled "How to thrive in the coming Market Chaos".
Here are few of key points which were raised:


The somewhat chaotic political instability now being experienced in the world is making investors very nervous and they stop investing. When this happens the markets become Range Bound and very Choppy. In this environment inexperienced traders get chopped up. It is important to note that the summer months have a good chance of experiencing volatility slowing-up and price moves becoming very lacklustre. In essence sideways market conditions may prevail.

(A glaring example of this can be examined in the 2016 charts)

The same summer period in 2016 reflects this state of the market where most of the major currencies were only trading in 100 pip ranges.


#1. You need to adjust your trading strategy make the most of the market chaos that is about to unfold.

#2. You need to become VERY SELECTIVE OF THE PAIRS THAT YOU TRADE. Hyper Selectivity is on!

#3. The perfect way to thrive in the chaos:
"Become like wise Bears who WAIT for the salmon to come to them and fish them out easily" - Avoid the young and single bear mentality of greedily try to fish as many as possible, waisting their energy with very little reward show for their efforts.
***** Don't act like New-bee's second guessing the market and rush into every possible opportunity without due diligence being exercised.

#4. Search for larger Range and Robust currency pairs. MORE importantly eliminate the NO-GO pairs FIRST.



"How to thrive in the coming Market Chaos"

#5. Assess The QUALITY of the daily close Bars/Candles for opportunities. The larger they are the more the potential and range.


I started the week very positive approximately making 20 pips per day, I was in my groove until Last Thursday when things started to go wrong, don't get me wrong this was all my fault it had nothing to do with the markets. I sustained some losses during the morning session which was no big deal I was down about 34 pips which by the time I left to attend a meeting I had turned around to +20 pips.

Thinking back, I should've just taken my pips and been happy with what the market gave me for the day. Did I do it yeah right I'm afraid when I got back to my office for some insane reason I decided to enter position on the GBP/USD which I have to tell you was quite a wild ride anyway I managed to lose 70 pips, I was just about to Close up for the day when I noticed one of the micro support levels on my one minute chart was holding, I entered long then started to move north rapidly in a matter of a few seconds I was back in positive territory, now I should've closed out with a profit of approximately 20 pips and been more grateful, but I am sad to say greed got the better of me and I ended up thinking which was the catalyst for my rip back down within approximately 10 seconds Price went straight down so I closed my position with the loss of yeah you guessed it 70 pips.

What made it worse was for two hours that morning I was working working working and ended up with 20 pips and in a matter of minutes I ended up down 70 pips and coming close to my 2% loss which is something I treat very seriously. After reviewing my trades and charts I concluded that I had been a total idiot who let greed get the better of me, however- 70 pips. Was not the end of the world and I still had powder to trade.

Now Friday morning guess what I did I decided that the GBP/USD was ready for re-trace, that’s right I decided, not my metholagy my ego decided that I was going to engage the market and win because I was such a good trader. I was right the market did retrace I was back in the green however this was just a luck which inevitably ran out and I ended up down 1.8% for the morning. After things calmed down I nearly got back in with another position but that would've broken one of my golden rules: if my account gets near 1.8% I close for the day. Now Because I had no powder left I did just that and felt terrible that I couldn't have the chance to end a positive for the week.

Looking back, I let my emotions dictate when I was going to trade, At the start of the week I was in the groove with the market, I showed it respect by honoring my stops doing my homework and placing my trades as per my trading plan. We were working together making the pips until Thursday when I totally disrespected it, I bit the hand that was feeding me, naturally this could not go on and the market decided to tech me a valuable lesson DONT DISRESPECT THE MARKET

Now I need to Work Work Work, placing One Good Trade, Then One Good Trade, Then One Good Trade in other words get back into my groove showing respect to the market and myself.

Hope this helps anyone in a rip


Sorry it should read (my methodology)


Since entering Gold II, I've kept my stops tighter as I was tired of being in a position where I had to makeup a lot of lost ground. There are a lot more losing trades and as miserable as I feel, my account does look as bad as it did even when I felt I was trading better. While I don't think this arbitrary stop amount is necessarily the way to trade longer term, looking to improve my win rate with these smaller stops will hopefully improve my entries (and/or exits) as I am looking for more telling signs of when to enter a trade.

Will see where this takes me. One thing I've been paying more attention to recently is the wicks on candles when we run into a support or resistance. I can't quite describe what to look for when, but I will need to try to see if I can put it in writing, follow it and measure somehow. I get the feeling it may be a futile exercise and turn out to be more of a "can't describe but know when I see it" kind of skill.


Another good trading maxim to remember, "The market will always try to hurt the maximum number of people." If an obvious support/resistance level is approached, you're not the only person or bot seeing it. The market is sitting there saying, "Yeah, go ahead and take that trade along with everyone else. I'll take everybody's money." This is how banks, big institutions and market makers run stops. They see the same S/R, but they want a better price. They'll let little guys like us get in, then they'll drive price to our stops where they can get filled at a better price before the market goes in the direction everyone thought it would go in the first place. I love trading the GBP pairs because they move, but when you look at a chart, you can see pin bars form at S/R levels where little guy stop have been taken out. I've had it happen too much so I keep my GBP stops much wider than on other currencies.


I usually use 1.5-3.00 pip stop however I try to keep it to 0.50 sometimes I can take a 9-pip loss because I would have 3 positions on, mind you this is hard in Gold 2 using 1000 account.

So, without doubt during Thursday & Friday I let myself get carried away and paid for it, naturally my statistics have suffered which was a shame when I was about to complete G2 I just had to finish Great expectations which I would have completed within the next few days.

Anyway, this is all positive feedback for when I am a funded trader, we learn from our mistakes and come back stronger and believe me I have made lots of them.

Anyone working through the Beeline Process don’t be afraid of taking trades, win or lose it all helps you find your groove.



I have updated my chart analysis from last week. I have zoomed into the daily time frame. I am just looking at the price action between the red parallel channel. This is the same red parallel channel plotted last week.

I have shown two areas (see circles on chart) where price did a little zigzag dance before shooting up to the top of the parallel channel. I would now expect price action to start heading upward in the weeks ahead.

Anyway, this is my analysis until proven otherwise.


@alan_6 thanks again for posting your analysis. I totally agree with your assessment. And this goes right along with what I've decided to do. As today starts a new week, I'll start here by taking snapshot of my analysis, and keep track of my projected weekly targets, so I will build a track record and can gauge how accurate I am.

** update ** I'm actually not quite so bullish on this pair. I need to allow it time to prove itself. I'm basing that on a few things that I see upon closer inspection. There is a strong support zone down around 1.34. So, while last week, on Wed (6/7) it shot way up, it actually ended up with lower highs (looking at the H4 chart) and ended up back down to 1.3422 support before a small recovery. But that 1.3422 was a lower low (paired with the lower high makes me skittish of going long.) It has been in a downtrend since early May, and as of yet, I haven't seen a reversal bar. It is indecisive these past 2 weeks, and could head south 150-200 pips before finding support. And that might take a couple of weeks. I see room for it to lose 50 pips over the next few days, and has quite a consolidation channel it's running over the past 11-12 daily bars. And mentioning those 11th-12th bars back, it did get a little bounce off the down trend it was in, at which point it did go into consolidation. But what I noticed is, although it had a strong bullish candle when the trend broke, it was not a bullish engulfing candle. I have to pass on this one, based on my comment to @jrh that follows... I'm being picky, picky, picky. I'm not pulling the trigger until I get something more solid. It's the new me! :-)

@jrh - you're always handing out these bonus materials and so often, right at the exact moment needed. This really confirms what I've basically concluded. That the market has changed its demeanor. The result to my strategy? Easy. Exactly what you've posted. Be more careful in my analysis, and more picky about which opportunities I pounce on. Thank you again, sir!


Hi Brian & Alan,

Firstly Alan thanks for your point of view and snapshot of this trade.

Secondly, and both you and Brian must forgive me for disagreeing with this (I could be proved wrong).
From the weekly charts I read that this USD/CAD pair is trapped in an ascending triangle pattern and my bias is to the downside the 1.3200 zone of interest.


Sorry Brian I mistakenly referred to you above.


I had a similar experience as Norm. I had made it to funding and started doing badly. I finally realized that I needed to trade the large time frames. I now use the 4 hour time frame. I also use a 10 EMA and a 20 EMA. I wait for the candle to close. When the 10 EMA crosses to the north of the 20 EMA I buy and let my trade run until the 10 EMA crosses the 20 EMA again at which point I sell. I finally realized how important it is to let my good trades run and cut my loosing trades short. I am thankfully doing well again and I am able to sleep much better. My best to all. Hang in there and it will all be worth it.


On the daily chart I see the cad at the bottom of a symmetrical triangle if you look back a bit . If you look at the most recent history I also see a rising wedge. Since it entered the triangle from below it will usually exit in the same direction that it was going which would be up.most ascending wedges break up . I would be careful on this one and not trade until we see at least a 1 hr candle open and close outside of the triangle.Let it tell us which way it is going.

Cad triangle 6-11.png

lindamanns123 it is really helpful to me hearing people like you and Norm share some of your trials and war stories and how you overcame it all to get to the point of being funded. Some days it feels like I'm never going to make it, but being able to read about how others have done it keeps me thinking that I can do it too.

I have been learning to look at the charts across multiple time frames, so I always have an idea where, as I put it, the market "wants" to go. Sometimes, I don't think IT knows what it wants to do, but hey, you know what I mean.

@Norm says "Let it tell us which way it is going." Seems like today, USD/CAD spoke loud and clear! I got me some of that. It helped offset my other losses. LOL. Oh boy, I got work to do!


Enjoyed the debate!



As you will recall from my original post I mentioned the major trend was down and the long slow upward grind in the market was corrective. In the chart attached to that t post I illustrated this long slow grind with green parallel channel lines. Further within the green parallel channel price action moves from the bottom of the channel to the top and back again in waves making higher highs and higher lows. I also illustrated the current wave up by drawing in a red lined parallel channel.

So what happened yesterday. Yesterday USDCAD broke out of the upward wave of the red parallel channel sending a signal the upward wave was complete. We do however need to be mindful of false breakouts. USDCAD is now very close to the bottom of the longer term green channel line. So if the longer term corrective rally is going to continue we need to be mindful the market could start a new upward rally at any time.

Conclusion: The long slow upward corrective grinding rally is not over only the current wave within the corrective rally is complete. We need to be careful here and not assume the downward turn of yesterday is going to continue. We need to wait for more evidence as it could be that the longer term slow upward grinding correction is the one that will continue.


Hi Alan_6,

I had another look at both the weekly & daily charts of USD/CAD. I agree with you that one has to be cautious on this one.

What stands out in favor of the downside is the large Bear Candle, which under normal circumstances points confidently to the downside. However, what concerns me is that the RSI is very oversold and according to the volume there seems to be very little buying or selling going on (much like the hung parliament in the UK) . . . to confuse matters more is that the CSI indicator (1HR) shows the CAD as much stronger than the USD, but no momentum is visible.

Looking at the 1 MIN chart which has been bouncing up and down like a yo yo and has eventually reached a very strong support zone at 1.12025. Let's see what happens next.


jrh: Not sure what large bear candle you are looking at but probably represents the fact the major trend is down as noted in my original post. What we are in right now is a correction to the major downward trend. RSI, again I don't know what look back period you are using, is not a trend indicator it is a momentum indicator which is most likely signaling that the long term downward trend has run out of steam which agrees with the this market being in a correction.

Over 1hr tf dollar etf (stock symbol UUP) looks to be getting stronger.


Brian, I have had some of these same struggles leading up to where I am at today as well and realized my primary problem was myself...I was continually tinkering with strategy with the focus being on getting larger and larger profits hoping for an immediate income replacement strategy. The result was fairly large swings +100 pips, -200 pips, +300, -200, -50, get the point. It resulted in high volatility and zero consistency with more or less break even profits (lots of work with nothing to show).

I have since changed my mindset to the "long-game". Now my focus is on small consistent profits for a target gentle upward equity slope. Especially at Gold II ($1k) where we are both at, that volatility can knock us out easily. In my mind if I can nail down a strategy that gets just $1.50 profit on each trade at the Gold II level (micros) then that is easily scalable in the long-term...years for me. For me the change in mindset has been huge and has allowed me to be content in the small profits just biding time and surviving for the point at which I can begin scaling that per trade profit to $15 ($10k account) and $37.50 ($25k account)...etc.

So far, so good...but the primary lesson for me has been get out of my own way, the problem is not the strategy (strategies in my case), but rather the problem is consistently changing those strategies hoping for more and more.


brethenson2, with regards to the avg win / trade expectancy problem is there anything that stops you from forcing trades to equal the numbers you need them to be?

Example, I had the same problem with Gold I a few weeks back and my missing piece was Avg win vs. avg loss. My average loss was significantly higher than my average win (which btw, I don't really see as a problem if you have a high win% in the first place). The answer for me to bypass that problem was to force the algebraic solution. Set my trades for a loss of yes, technically I was actually targeting a loss on each trade. That dropped my average losses down significantly and while yes that also increased my number of losses I had enough wins to cover it. It worked for me and moved me into Gold II.

This is obviously "gaming the system" and maybe inconsistent with how we would trade with real dollars, but as someone from the Apiary leadership crew just recently said it requires thinking about your portfolio holistically and therefore is still a valuable learning experience.

I hope that helps...good luck!


davidgoff: You got it!!! My Expectancy Statistic is $1.00.


Hi Alan_6,

The candle i am referring to is the daily close on the daily chart 2017-06-12.


Glad it helped! Good luck!!


@alan_6 I couldn't agree more! A quick look at the USD/CAD D7 chart reveals that yesterday was nothing more than a corrective measure that brought price into line with the upward trend line. That trend line extends all the way back to the beginning of 2015.

It has continued falling today. I wouldn't be surprised to watch it fall to the psychologically important 1.3200 line. Momentum could carry it past that, without violating the up trend. But the momentum is weakening and a series of waves seems to be controlling its descent.

I totally agree with your conclusion of wait and see, and would not be at all surprised to see it head north again.

Its worth mentioning, nothing is saying it will head north right away.

@jrh the RSI being oversold isn't surprising. It had gotten way up into the overbought zone prior to this correction. Being oversold is another bullish indication. The volume spiked on the big fall, showing it was the smart money moving it down.

And here I was thinking it was my paper trade of .03 lot size that caused it. *scratching my head*

Thank you all for sharing. The additional insights always helps improve one's own analysis. I'm sitting and waiting for now.

UC D7 2017-06-13.png

@davidgoff you hopped in there while I was typing up a response! Welcome to the conversation and thank you. You words of wisdom bring an entirely new angle of consideration. You mentioned "gaming the system" by hunting for some quick, small losing trades. I actually learned that from a training session where the Apiary instructor actually taught how to do it!

If I get what you and Alan_6 are saying, moving my trade expectancy into that $1 - $1.50 zone sounds like a good goal to have. I've abandoned all my get there fast and get rich quick ideas as well. Looking at slow and steady. Right now learning how to weather the drawdown I'm experiencing without losing my shirt, or my mind.

@jrh I agree that your eye on the 6-12-2017 D1 candle, and how it closed is spot on. It has been proven out by today's continued move down. That's why I don't see it bottoming out immediately. But we have to wait and see, because the D7 chart shows us it has not as yet broken the upward trend line support.

In fact, looking at D7 one can see something rather startling. From January through April of 2017, there was a fall in excess of 2100 pips. But in the end, that was nothing more than a correction. It has continue its upward march ever since.

I suppose it is all a matter of perspective. A position trader looking at placing a trade to run for a month or longer has one set of concerns. A day trader has a different set of concerns altogether. I can look at this and make an informed decision about where to set my targets based on what I'm trying to accomplish. Just thinking out loud here.


brianj2: Of course you know that I see the fall from January to April as the being an impulse wave (the first wave down of a new down trend). I also see the waves up from April to present as corrective as they form a shallow upward trend with all its waves tightly compressed within a narrow channel as I have also explained earlier.

Of course we are all entitled to our own analyses. It is these variations in analyses that generate variations in how we all trade that then creates volatility and it is this volatility that causes the markets to be tradable.


alan_6: you might have thought I know, but you're giving me too much credit! LOL!

But I was able to figure out why you're saying it. I do say, you have a very sharp eye. I'm not saying that by way of flattery. Should the current downward move continue, we could see it go down to where it was at the end of April 2016.

I say that based on (what I think you might be pointing out, but correct me if I'm misinterpreting) May 2017's high was a lower high than the old high, from Jan 2016.

I am just letting this sink in. Because the question is, how to turn all this into green pips, as opposed to those nasty tasting red ones. Since I could be right as right can be in regards to these points of analysis, but my experience shows me that turning it into profitable trading is another skill altogether, and one that I'm struggling to master.

I'm watching and learning sir. I am truly grateful for you and others who are willing to share what they know, as I incorporate what I learn into my own trading style. This all serves to make me a more thoughtful trader, and I'm almost certain that is a good thing.


When I passed from Gold 1 into 2. I was down pretty badly, which prompted this thread.

I needed a mental adjustment.

1. I had to mentally let go of the past and not worry about how badly I was down.
2. I had to step back, and not trade so much.
3. I had to take some time for rest and reflection. Which allowed me to see that I needed to become more hyper-selective, and wait for only the very best setups.
4. This hyper-selectivity means waiting, and looking for setups that have a high probability for a big move. So I have a better reward:risk ratio going in.
5. Finally, I get into those trades and ride the momentum, jumping off when it starts to stall.

As soon as I entered Gold 2, I seemed to have lost what I thought I knew. But I had to accept this as simply inexperience. I'm learning a new skill, and so I have to drill practice. So what I've done is gone back to doing exactly what I did before. Having identified my problem, I'm taking those exact same steps once again. And once again, the results are speaking loud and clear.

I've also identified another important mind-set. Don't be afraid to admit to myself that I made a mistake. I've gotten into trades that I look at 10 minutes later and wonder how in the world did I go with that trade, based on the chart setup. What was I thinking?

So I've learned, hey, I'm a newbie. I'm going to make mistakes. It's alright. Admit I was wrong. Take the loss and get out. And place the opposite trade, the one I should have placed in the beginning. And then ride that wave as far as it takes me!

One of the most valuable lessons in all of this has been to keep my losses small. Although I experienced a drawdown, I didn't lose my head, and I kept my losers small. My expectancy is still negative, but it is headed the right direction. Therefore, I see this as a very successful period of time. And it is only going to get more positive from here.

I also learned a very important bit of knowledge. The market doesn't always have the same personality. It was roaring for those last two weeks or so of my Gold 1 training, so I was able to ride it up with ease. But soon as I hit Gold 2, it turned into a bucking bronco and it threw me to the ground. My friend @jrh shared the tidbit he learned about the seasonality aspect. This helped me to see and comprehend the changing personality of the market. So I have to be aware and change with it; adapt to it.

Now it's a meandering stream. Everything I see is going sideways this afternoon. No movement. The trading week ends in a few short hours. Rather than forcing a trade I'm closing up.

And I do mean "up" for my first week since being in Gold 2, I'm closing the week in the green. It ain't big, but it is a nice, cool green, 32 pips even. Which means I'm turning it around and getting myself headed in the right direction. This has been a valuable few weeks in my training, and I've learned a lot.

I've also met a lot of great friends on here, who have encouraged me and helped me get my head on straight.

My big thank you to everyone for helping and I hope lots and lots of little pips come and jump into your laps! And I mean, a LOT of pips!!! Like a mind-blowing, overflowing amount of pips.


Very wise words indeed Brian - NOTHING can stop your success now!


@jrh well sir, they are wise words. You should know, since basically I took what you said from another thread and reworded it using my own experience and understanding. LOL!!! You have been a vital asset to me during this lesson and I am very grateful and humbled to be able to call you a friend. You're always talking about how some people are angels from the Lord. Are you quite sure you don't have a pair of wings tucked up there behind that necktie? ;-)


Truer words were never spoken. I hope anybody struggling in the beeline gets a chance to read this. Your return to what got you where you are is particularly valuable. When you find something that works for you, stay with it. As they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Successful trading is supposed to be doing the same boring thing over and over, except that boring thing is making you money. Whenever I want to try something new and exotic, I go to my sim account and burn pips there until I either get the handle on it or throw my hands up in frustration, never to return to it. Keep up what you're doing. I think it will be interesting between you and jrh to see who gets their Gold 3 medallion first.


Hey John I'll be a sport and let Brian win this one - if anyone deserves it he does!

By the way it is to see you roaring and fired up - you are a great inspiration to all of us.

Thank you for your seasoned advice.

Take care

John to John

Brian no wings, just plain and simple me.


@ror4psu you have also been one of the ones dispensing gems of wisdom that have helped me through this period. It is kind of boring when you get right down to it, just repeat the same thing over and again. The exciting part, I've learned, is getting on here and sharing with and learning from others. Thank you for being part of that.

As for jrh - I'll be eating his dust in no time, I'm sure of that. But at least it will be gold dust! Have you seen the number of pips that man accumulates?

Oh yeah, one more thing. The other thing that makes it less boring is that I think of it as basically just playing a video game, but it makes you money (well, it will eventually.) You just watch those little charts with the little candles moving up and down, work out your strategy, and fire away! I told my kids they'd do great, as they could always play video games a lot better than me. I never got past level 3 on Donkey Kong. They'd always grab the controller out of my hand, with "Dad! You're gonna crash!!!" And crash I did.



Maybe the key to getting to Gold 3 is conquering Donkey Kong level 3. Confidence from one game might be transferable to another.


@ror4psu I sure hope that isn't the case, or I'll never get out!

@jrh there won't be any fixing of races. I'll be happy with an autographed copy of your book, "I Know Where All the Pips Went - Into My Account" I'll have something to read while I'm pedaling my Mario Kart as fast as I can, dodging the barrels Donkey Kong throws at me.


Guys I'm getting tired of using turpentine on the Stallions I ride in the market and I feel guilty about it.
They seem so exhausted that they are crawling along and a much reduced pace. Now then, your Mario cart definitely has a fair advantage over my horses. My next tactic is to call on MR Lion man up there for help to get the stallions motivated.

Brian get your book autographed and ready, I will definitely buy it..


I'm thinking of how we're actually all on the same team. We are the Bees-Knees! The institutional traders are "the other guys!" Working together, we can win. I was going to say, we can take them down. But that really isn't going to happen. We're not going to "take down" a $5-trillion/day market. Besides, we don't need to take them down. They might be aircraft carriers compared to us little rubber ducks, but the waves they produce is what we have to work together to learn how to capture a plentitude of pips. We'll all write the book together, and distribute copies among ourselves. Its a team effort. And I for one am just glad we have @jrh as our secret weapon! Don't let that suit and tie fool ya. He might look like a mild-mannered sort. But in the trading arena, that man is a heat-seeking missile. ;-)


You guys are the best! :)



Well said! jrh is an asset. Team work for us little guys and I don't mind riding the coat tails of institutional traders!


brianj2, Speaking of catching waves, did anyone catch (Short) the gold down move today? I only grabbed 20% of that 105 pip move down.

Since I work during the busy trading hours its extremely hard to jump in on these moves. I find I have to use r/s strategy rather than the crossover strategy. Plus it's difficult to anticipate which direction to take gold or any currency pair.


@guitarsusan you're a Gold 3. I'm just a pipsqueak hoping to get to your level of expertise. Soon.

@triguylm1 I think riding those waves is how it's done, IMHO


Hi All,

Today it is very rough out there in the market. It is so volatile that it is making my head spin . . . So bad is it that I changed from wearing my slippers to wearing military boots, fortunately the right size.Thank goodness i had the inner inclination to try to close out most of my trades last night (must be a prophetic warning from God). The trades which remained open look like minced meat with absolutely no flavor.

I feel so embarrassed and so unworthy of all the kind comments from all of you above.
I promise that I won't be offended if say that I am warm, which according to the Oxford Dictionary means "Not so Hot"!
In fact if it were not for all of you I would never have grown in this trading game - Thank you!

Mr T well done with catching gold with your breastplate of gold o! I see your incredible kindness and patience in your forum interactions and posts to Newbees. Yes, it is better to give than receive.

Mkelley, i like your . . . is it hunting gear you are wearing? Man If ever I needed camouflage to stealthily handle the low-blows and counter-attack the dirty-play of the big institutions, is right now. You look like someone who vigilant and who is forearmed for great things in trading. May your trading and everything else in your life be richly blessed.

Oh Guitarsusan,

Thank you for the maestro melodies from your guitar which bring about a calmness in this war zone.
Because of your seniority and well earned rank, I am careful about what I say - Couldn't wish to have a better BOSS!

Brian A very big thank you for this forum - it feels like an oasis in the dessert!

If I have failed to offend anyone in this forum, i do sincerely apologize ha . . ha..


@jrh I'm glad to know it's not just me. All I did was dabble, and lose a few pips. It's breaking down. Oop, no, it's breaking up. Third time is a charm, so I did throw in the towel. Just for the night.


I've been "Lurking" mostly on this thread . That's what my family calls it when you hang around reading and watching a post or thread without any comment.

I have to post today though. Both Brian and John posted that yesterday was tough. Yesterday was tough for me as well. During two hours of trading the market was choppy. I took 17 trades with the last two about -5 or -6 pips for a total of -23. My stop rule kicked in which was about the only rule I followed. After my self evaluation I realized I was 1. Letting the market control me. 2. Choking off my winners by running up my stops too quick. Problem two being one of the results from problem one. Ten hours later I take another look,. I liked what I saw and four positive trades later I got the pips back. Three more positive trades this AM and I'm near my high again. Average win>loss and expectancy both got knocked in the dirt but I'm not worried about them as long as I follow my rules. Besides I'm only on day 7 of Gold 1.

The reason I post that mundane trade activity that happens to every trader is because some are new and some are struggling. I agree completely with ror4psu that anyone struggling with their trading as well as new Bees should get to read this thread. Even if they "Lurk'! I do hope that my little bit here can help. My "camo" hat is off to you Brian for having the courage to start it. To everyone who has added to this post...Thank you!


mkelley so was it really lurking, or was it just your camo hat kept you well concealed among the shadows?


Seriously, thank you sir for the kind words. I just figured that I was probably not the only person who would reach that point of wanting to throw in the towel.

I picked up 130 pips out of the move yesterday and this morning. Sat out a spell while GBP pairs all took a breather, and have jumped back in, and they now appear to be ready for another sprint upwards.

ror4psu is a smart trader and has many words of wisdom that we all benefit from. Its great having people like that on our team.


I agree with Mkelley that this the best thread and that everyone who is battling with their trading should read it and use the practical solutions shared. Mkelloy, thank you for your very relevant input . . . I am so glad that you were able to bounce back and succeed. Glad you did not throw in the towel.


I remember the day when I was glad I didn't throw in the towel, only because I was hoping to use it to hang myself. (All of which, of course, is figurative and melodramatic language!) I'm glad I didn't as I was able to grab some nice juicy pips from the market yesterday and today. There's a lot of strength to be gained from all the good ideas being shared on these forums. I'm giving thanks for everybody making it what it is.

Pip gatherer-PG

Well done Sir

You are an inspiration to us all


Judging by all the comments on Brians' post it's obvious that a lot of us experience the same emotions. I have on more than one occasion considered packing it in (and even tore up my log book), but I don't give in too easily and so I continue with the learning experience - after all, that's what this is until we earn a funded account. I don't make enormous PIP's on any trade and am happy with a win of 10 PIP's per trade as I figure it's easier to make 10 PIP's than 50 on a single trade. One thing we should not forget whilst we are in the learning phase is that a lot of us are chasing PIP's and trying to achieve the Apiary fund objectives for each level and that the quicker we can achieve the objectives the better. - maybe that's the wrong approach, maybe we should slow down, curb our enthusiasm and impulsiveness, learn from our mistakes and decide on a few strategies, indicators or tools that we know work and then refine them as we progress through the training. A useful tool I have been using over the past week or so is the Currency Strength indicator (


Thank you for the rebuke Dallasd,

Yes I do need to slow down and take stock. I feel at times that I am bursting at the seams with enthusiasm and energy, which I agree needs harnessing. thank you for this wise foresight.

I too use the tool ,mentioned with great success.

Blessings to you.


My Confession: I am humiliated, embarrassed and desperate!

Step 1, I am admitting that I am an undisciplined trader, who lacks patience and is fearful of losing and being wrong.

I have been trading forex full time for 10 years now. My account size has fluctuated over those years. The three years prior to joining Apiary I was trading a level III size account. I am a capable trader but a consistent loser. In October of 16 I took a 25% hit on a position I was building. I now refuse to add any more money.......or trade personal account.

I joined Apiray to get funded, as most here, on the forum have. I have had little trouble making it through the bee line, as far as doing the exercises but have not been profitable since bronze I.

Within the first two weeks of Gold II I was up 9% only waiting for 3 week minimum and now only 3.5 months later I am DOWN: 65%

My style of trading prior to Apiary I would look for a set up, Place my order (1-3 lots) and placing stops and TP targets. Ex; buy Eur/usd 2 lots. First tp at resistance sell eur/usd (1 lot) let trade run and manage. This style of trading can not be done at Apiary......This has taken me quite a while to assimilate and I am just getting a handle now.

So learning how to put the pieces of the trade on at the beginning changes not only how you set your trade up but also how it looks from a statistics point view. I am becoming better at this.

I am a very aggressive trader and breaking that habit has proven at this point to be impossible!

Prior to Apiary I was a short term day trader looking for (20/40 pip move) TF: 1 plus hr for set ups 15 for managing and 5 for entry. I did some swing trading on 4 hr and scalping. Scalping for me was to look for moves of 10 pips within 15 minutes. I did approximately 20 trades a week total.

As it stands at the moment in four months, I have 1600 trades (my old style of trading this would = 500-800) This is very high for me. 44% winners 56%losers avg win $1.98 avg loss $2.23 expectancy $-.38 Equity is 45° down to the right.

I have been hanging out on the 1 minute chart acting like a desperate man. This is no place for an addictive personality.

I am now afraid to let loss run but still have the tendency. I am afraid to let profit run for fear of it turning against me. I have no consistency in my lot size.

I constantly break my management rules. Damn #%F I feel hopeless.



Just want to say that I appreciate learning from each one of you. Keep plugging on!! It will pay off.

Market Tango, you've been able to express a lot of my feelings, problems, frustrations. Sometimes one takes 1 step forward, then 3-4 back - OUCH!!

I finally made Gold 3 last week after a year+ struggle -seemed like I did everything wrong and kept changing strategies,etc looking for the golden grail, I suppose! Now attempting to keep positive attitude and positive balance with growth and keep focus so that I can progress.
This week will be rough as end of quarter, so will try to not expect too much and really TRY to not control the market. Hopefully a bit better trading next week and beyond, even though July and August are traditionally less volatile.

And a special thanks to jrh for so eloquently presenting info and encouragement. You are a true inspiration.


Congratulations mgt7 on receiving your gold 3 medallion. Don't feel alone in your journey of over a year to this point. I, too, traveled the same long and winding road.



I thought I was reading my autobiography when I read your latest post. I also joined Apiary Jan. 2016. I also spent over 3 months in Gold 2 getting my positive expectancy in line. Lastly, I am also an I/A trader. Do not despair. If I can get to Gold 3, you can too. Figure out what worked best for you going through the beeline and try to get back to that style of trading. One minute charts have gotten me in more trouble than I care to think about sometimes.


"In a dark place we find ourselves, and a little more knowledge lights our way" --Yoda


Made 3 huge blunders today: I went against my trading plan, I got greedy and trebled up on a breakout strategy; I failed to clear 3 x sell stop orders that I had put in place to play the London breakout strategy, subsequently the previous trades sell stop was activated before the new buy stop.


dallasd I feel your pain. You've made it this far. And that's one mistake you won't be repeating any time soon. Thanks for sharing the lesson as a great reminder.


Hi Guys,
It is always darkest before the dawn, don't come this far and invest this amount of time and energy to then throw it away,
I think we don't realise how close we are sometimes,
Good luck and give yourself a break from time to time,
cheers Darren


He MarketTango,

It is great having you on this thread of Brian's.
I have an great deal of respect for anyone who is open, honest and has integrity. Someone who is humble enough to be honest about themselves and willing to openly express your shortcomings warts and all. When it comes to absolute, unadulterated and untainted truth (reality) and IF we take it to heart and act on it, only then will the BREAKTHROUGH BEGIN! My advice to you is to patiently look at longer time frames before considering short trades. This changed my trading from junk status to success.

Thanks for the quotation! According to Albert Einsteins physics evidence, Darkness, Cold and Evil do not exist - Darkness is the ABSENCE of Light (which is quantifiable); Cold is the Absence of Heat and at its lowest level, no heat can be detected or measured; Evil is the Absence of GOD. Light is understanding and darkness is ignorance. "If you can't measure something, you can't improve it".

Great to see you again Dallasd!
The man who pulls no punches and keeps us all humble.

Good to see Ror4 & Doublekop!

And last but not least Mgt7,
Gold 3 an amazing and well earned achievement! You are an inspiration to all of us!
Thank you for your kind words.


Mr. JRH,

Evil is not the absence of GOD, but the absence of croutons and ranch at the all-you-can-eat salad bar. Also,smells like the blue cheese dressing has been left out for 2,000 too many years ^_^

Mr. BrianJ,

Hopefully your fortunes have turned around, good sir.


Mr. Enigmatic_Genius,

I'm doing much better, thank you for those kind words.

Right now considering why gains come slowly but loss comes in an instant.

I find that I can't grasp the treasure while my hands are filled with rocks.


Mr Enigmatic,

I must say that you have a lot of spunk to challenge us young people . . . our greatest reward will be seeing you successfully grow and mature in the business of trading. Keep well and go get those pips consistently.


Mr. BrianJ,

I'm not sure if this pertains to you, but maybe it does. As a lifelong athlete and uber-competitive person, I've had to separate myself from "losing" a trade. What I mean is that a losing trade doesn't equate to losing a game or losing a match, it's more like swinging at a bad pitch, taking a bad jump shot, or making a bad move in chess.

I believe you also have to stop looking at it as a personal failure; what happens on your computer screen does not define you as a person. I may be much younger and may not have much to offer as wisdom goes but I've had my fair share of battles in life. Keep your head up and keep chugging along!
"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

Mr. JRH,

Blind conformity will be the demise of man and this spunk has allowed me to persevere throughout life. My biggest reward will be to one day share your(along with Mr. BrianJ and others) passion for trading. Your kindness, Mr. Jrh, and generosity to share what you learn with all is what I strive for.


Now Mr Enigmatic,

These are the very words I have been waiting to here from you. I too did not have an easy childhood and a very tough life, but I am grateful for this because it has formed and molded me into the person I am now. Though in no way perfect, I continue to learn and grow by grace. You have our full 100% backing to see you through the ranks!


Mr. Enigmatic_Genius,

The part that pertains to me is that I appreciate you for taking the time to cheer me on. I don't look at this as a personal failure. I've been a software developer for 35 years. Why's that important? Because working with the people I've worked with means my ego has already been taken out to the back alley and stomped into the ground. And, if my self worth came from my trading, you'd see me out on the streets, "Hey, buddy, can you spare a few pips?" (Hmmmmm... not that bad an idea actually. I'd probably get more pips than what I'm doing right now.) So I don't take it personally. I just get frustrated, because we all like to win at whatever we do. (I'm more of a chess type than a sports type. But my kids would call me a geek. Not a nerd, but a geek.)

Anyway, Batman, I am planning to see you in the circle of Gold winners real soon.

Just as an aside, I figured out one of the things I really love about Forex. Its like day trading. And you can work off any time frame charts you want, and trade as many times a day as you want. I love that because it really lets you work on your chart reading skills.

Hey, I see Mr. JRH is sporting an extra bar on his lapel pin. I'll soon be saluting him... TEN HUT!!! Officer on deck!

Mr. JRH you are the trading phenom! Congratulations on your achievement. It must have taken you at least a week to pass through Gold 1. You are something else, my friend! May the Lord continue to bless you and prosper all your trades!


Mr. BrianJ,

I hope to see you there as well, not as soon as I'd prefer(dang these chains again!) LOL

My personality is such that it can brighten the moods of everyone in the room, if I so choose. If I see someone down, I can turn that frown upside down pretty quickly lol
I don't like to be fit into a box or a category, so I'm like a jock/nerd/geek/underwater basket weaver. I may not have much to offer as of trading wisdom yet but I've coached middle school as well as high school sports, so I'm not too shabby at this motivational stuff.

For the time being, I'm here to put smiles on people's faces and try to reel in 1/1000th of the pips that Mr. JrH brings in. We need to call him Half man-Half Amazing haha ^_^

First day trading my silver account and already banked in 30 pips! (jinxes self and instantly losses 200 pips lol)


I didn't say I'm a geek. I said my kids called me a geek. But what do kids know?

Wait a second! Did you just say your first day trading silver? Congratulations! That's impressive progress.

(The 200 pips you lost... I know where they went. I'll give you one guess. Pip-Magneto.)



I'm sure you noticed, but your compatriot is breathing down your neck now.

Congrats jrh on your G 2 medallion.

Both of you will soon be in funded land.



When Mr. BrianJ and Mr. JRH both get funded, I'll be like the sad but proud mother sending her boys off to college lol. I have my bottle of Crown Royal ready to pop open when that happens!


Ror4psu um yeah I totally noticed. He's looming in my rear view mirror. He grabbed the keys to the Batmobile while mommy was passed out on the sofa with a bottle of Crown Royal still in her hands.

Thanks for the inspiration. Trade well my friend!


I trust both of you will find the way.


Something just happened. In my mind, I went, "This is going to be easy." Laugh if you want, but, that just happened!

I've proven to myself I have the ability to get pips. Now, I'm developing the discipline necessary to keep them.

Thanks for the encouragement!


Mr. BrianJ

I hereby officially anoint your rap name as Pip Diddy. We need Apiary to print these shirts. Or "Pippin' Aint Easy".

Sometimes I cease to amuse myself lol


Man I like your sense of humor Enigmatic! In our book you Rock!


I know how you feel... I remember someone saying that "the system is not rigged against you", but it does seem that way sometimes... :D

I have days where every trade goes the opposite as soon as it hits my mark, then other days where it is not too bad. Hang in there!


jaefarrior I'm pretty certain there's a little guy over there who they hired just to make sure my play money trades go against me. Its very infuriating.

Enigmatic_Genius thanks for my new name... I love it. All I gotta do now is learn to rap and I'm all set up.


Pip Daddy, I don't think you or I will paint a good picture rapping with Enigmatic_Genius ;)

Jaefarrior, we know that the market is nasty, but we get back on our saddles and continue to head north.


I too have bad runs but I keep trying. I must say seeing Gold 1 and 2's having the same troubles I'm having helps me keep going.
All this time I thought it was just me


This is a great thread. Every time I get down or frustrated, just reading this thread provided inspiration to continue. Thank you all!


Ive found inspiration in this thread today . Thank you.


JRH, did you ever get your answer from Barbara Evans regarding the difference between Alveo and the other broker you were using?

Just curious?


When the market goes against my trade, I always look back and evaluate why I placed that losing trade.
If I am sure that I placed the trade according to my trading plan or set-up and the trade lost... I don't feel bad about it.
I accept that I can't control the market but I can control my loses by cutting it short.

It's important to trade according to your trading plan/ set-up/ or strategy that works for you.

If the signal is not there to enter a trade ... I don't trade.
If a signal is present, I place the trade and if the market moves in my favor, I place multiple trades.



Alas still no reply from Barbara?

I think we should all compare trades done with Apiary and trades in our private live or demo accounts and collectively send a report through to the top. This in my opinion is not good enough because we all deserve the courtesy of an answer.

Yes, this is a great thread and we should all keep it fired up. It is like an oasis of hope in the desert.

Thank all of you for your inputs. It is great to know that deep down we are human and not robots.


Let's take our pips from the big boys and run!


Well the towel is in my hand again today. If you want to make money just watch me and go the other way cause the minute I do anything it jack rabbits the other way - literally. I need to break something right now. Got funded & awhile ago, then stopped trading it & now back to prefund & don't think I have made a bloody pip since. Market against me, against me, against me then the minute I cut the loss, it soars 60P in the other direction. I am so pissed off right now I can hardly stand it.


Enigmatic that might be your best one yet! Very funny. And so apropos.

Okmortgageteam all I can say is you took the words right out of my mouth. The going against me thing has happened so often it almost seems routine. I see a strong downward trend, wait for the pullback, heading back down, good momentum, I sell; immediately it turns around and heads north. Or it's new favorite method is the all day torture, where it turns, so I'm just a couple pips down, all day, then it teases me with a pip or two before shooting off in the wrong direction. Or it gives me a few pips and then shoots off the wrong way.

My win rate has gotten so bad I've decided earlier today to make some changes. I will not do anything more than 0.01 lot size until I turn it around. I'm going to hunker down and do some studying and figure out what my problem is. I'm going to keep better logs. I'm going to focus in my Silver account until I get my win rate above my loss rate.

So I'm just going to work on my fundamental skills of choosing good entry points, timing, and get my win rate out in the lead.


I posted this on another thread, but decided I need to post it here too. This is an example of how badly things have been going.

So, @okmortgageteam, can you spare a towel? :-)

I was in, I believe it was USD/JPY, short. It messed around on me for some time. Still looked to be ready to spring down at any moment.

Well... spring it did. I think it SHOT down maybe 50-70 pips. It went well below my TP line!!! Yay!!! You're thinking, so what? You're thinking, I made a ton of pips, right?

That's where you'd be wrong. Because as quickly as it shot down, it also shot back up. Like way back up, over my head. There it was, waaaay up there and BOOM it hit my stop loss.

It all happened so quickly, all I can surmise is that it was too quick and the liquidity provider didn't execute my trade quickly enough. Or, the price hit my TP and so a market buy order was executed, and then in that split second the price had rebounded.

I got soaked on it. It was horrible. I quit trading for the rest of the day. Finally got the nerve to try a trade later that evening, because the setup looked so PICTURE PERFECT. Good correlation across multiple timeframes. So sweet. And to make it even better, I saw an article posted by some analyst on, for the same pair, he had basically picked almost the exact same entry, TP, and SL. I mean, man, if that wasn't just perfect.

Sweet, until I enter the market and then it flips out and goes berserk. Quick as a wink, I was down another 65 pips.

Then I quit for the day for real. Saw some real nice setups early in the morning, so I got in. Got soaked, again, down another 30 pips.

That is when I started making my executive decisions, mentioned above. Until I get this win rate turned around, drastic countermeasures are the order of the day.


I keep hearing about knowing where the orders are sitting. I am sure the MM have software or something to know where they are because it just happens to, to often. I have seen software that shows this but it also is not cheap.

I am getting to a point where the coin just might have a better win rate then me. And don't everyone start saying - well take your 3pips and run. I would love to have that chance. More often then not, i don't get a chance to grab 1P - it just grabs mine and runs away like that bunny up above.


brian and okay,

I feel your pain. I've had that happen to me a number of times when trading GBP pairs. So much so I posted "I'm Tired." Something that was pointed out to me - and I kicked myself in the ass for not doing it - is to check higher timeframe charts to see if price is approaching some wayback support or resistance level. Another thing I recently learned is how to find stop runs by banks and market makers. The abridged version is look for pins on bars poking above or below an established S/R level. There's a little bit more to it. with other indicators that banks are going to take price the other way. Watch the below video and the other youtube videos done by DayTradingForexLive. Hope it helps.



Thanks John, I'm going to take a look.

okmortgageteam you might also want to investigate a couple of things that came to my mind. One, are you trend trading but with indicator(s) that work best in ranges?

Also, have you questioned/considered which pairs you're trading? Are you trading too many? Are you trading the wrong ones? I mean, I don't even know the answers (if I did I would not have the same tale of woe) but I'm just brainstorming with you.

And I also think the time of day is a huge factor. I know JRH has great success, and he's in South Africa. Brucewaynetrades and Enigmatic_Genius are posting great results too, and I notice they keep referring to themselves as insomniacs. I'm starting to wonder about the time of day thing.

These are some things I'm going be looking into for my own dilemma. Maybe it will help, maybe its nothing. Anyway, I found a good article talking about the best time of day for various pairs:


brian I just love your posts, so lighthearted and uplifting. You bring a lot to the funds experience. I'm not funded yet but I enjoy the thought of getting paid to fail my way to success! Makes my excessive mistakes and errors so much smaller.