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Trading in the Zone

 
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robunited

Trading in the Zone

Yesterday, after I was wondering about my own post when I did not trade a setup as succuessfully as I should have, but said:

"on hindsight just a great 2 leg fade opportunity ... but I didn't really know how to judge it or what it means for the market, a unexpected emergency rate cut?"

I went to bed and listened to the audio book on YT "Trading in the Zone". So many things hit me ... in the morning, I re-read the pdf.

It was like reading this book for the very first time! And so many things on the forum and interaction with fellow members, got resembled in this book, too.

If you have read this book a while ago, but now have traded, learned and have more experience, I can highly recommend to please re-read it, again.

It puts it all into a new perpectives and places in your mind. A lot of confirmations!

I will post a few things which stuck out to me in this thread.

Please, do this, too, but only after you have read the book again and got a refresh, don't post from just memory having read this book 3-5 years ago ;-)

 

 

Tue, 03/03/2020 - 9:21pm
 
burton

looks to be an interesting thread. the cycle of learning and practical application is a process worth understanding.

 
FXGold54

Great book. Here is the pdf. If anybody needs it.

Allen

AttachmentSize
Mark_Douglas_Trading_in_the_Zone.pdf 732.57 KB
 
burton

sweet...i just double checked, i have it. =)

 
robunited

... and the audio book, in case you can't fall in sleep ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIM9o7KZb1I&t=6516s

 
mvantonelli

Yeah I agree, Mark Douglas is great...and being great in the most important area of trading is...not bad haha

I haven't read the whole book, but some of it a while ago. I think I've heard a lot of the audio book for this or another book he has. He really gets into some great details and distinctions
that most traders just gloss over or are unaware of.

One thing you mentioned that is hugely helpful, maybe even fundamentally what has to happen either by accident or consciously, is what you said about re-reading, especially after you've gained some more screen time, reflection etc...In poker, this is taken for granted as the only process that works. We usually just call it "rinse/repeat".

And it might seem kind of master-of-the-obvious to people when it's brought up, but when people are actually going through the process unaware of it...well they might not actually make it through the process, just because the **apparent**benefits only hit on the 2nd cycle through...ie, I read book x, didn't get it....well, let's try this trading thing--damn, that didn't work...I just don't get this at all. And they give up. (Simplified...and our example person maybe sissified, giving up a little too easy, but you get the idea)

But what happens though is if they'd gone back to the original first thing they tried that they didn't understand (the book), after having tried the 2nd thing they "didn't get anywhere with" (trading), they'd find that that they understand at least some of it...and the only thing that helped them understand, was the other thing that they seemed to get nothing out of at first. And then going back to trading, the book now informs progress there. And so on...and on. Rinse/repeat.

I'll look it over again....or maybe even read it all so I can comment further haha

 
Mr. Winders

sounds like I should get the book

 
abraez

The book is quite nice. I find it a bit repetitive but maybe that is the point - to stick the concepts into the readers mind.

 
robunited

@abraez ... The book is quite nice. I find it a bit repetitive but maybe that is the point - to stick the concepts into the readers mind.

Yes, re-reading the concepts is good, it will make you reflect the current stage of where you are at.

i.e. which one of the 3 types of traders am I? And why?

 
Rookie

You folks might also look into Bret Steinberger,

 
robunited

And there we go again, look at the other guys ;-)

Lovely Ed, you got a stray mind.

There are sections in Trading in the Zone which are describing this phenomena ... and how you can fix this ;-)

 
Rookie

Try it you may like it...LOL

He is also the Psych coach for SMB Captial.

 
robunited

Yes, perfect. Of course I might like it. That is not the point ;-)

Ok, let's try to pick the sections of the Trading in the Zone book which talk about this aspect of trading, or kind of addiction to learning new things.

 
robunited

The Aha moment - Awareness vs Believe

"Awareness is not necessarily a belief. You can't assume that learning about something new and agreeing with it is the same as believing it at a level where you can act on it. "

--------------------------------------------------------------

To use the analogy of software code, that shift would be equivalent to finding the flawed line in your mental system and replacing it with something that works properly. People normally describe this kind of internal mental shift as an "ah, ha" experience, or the moment when the light goes on. Everyone has had these kinds of experiences, and there are some common qualities associated with them. First, we usually feel different. The world even seems different, as if it had suddenly changed. Typically, we might say at the moment of the breakthrough something like, "Why didn't you tell me this before?" or, "It was right in front of me the whole time, but I just didn't see it" or, "It's so simple; why couldn't I see it?"

Another interesting phenomenon of the "ah, ha" experience, is that sometimes within moments,
although the amount of time can vary, we feel as if this new part of our identity has always been a part of who we are. It then becomes difficult to believe that we were ever the way we were before we had the experience. In short, you may already have some awareness of much of what you need to know to be a consistently successful trader. But being aware of something doesn't automatically make it a functional part of who you are. Awareness is not necessarily a belief. You can't assume that learning about something new and agreeing with it is the same as believing it at a level where you can act on it.

 
Rookie

"Yes, perfect. Of course, I might like it. That is not the point ;-)"

Rob, use your head for something besides a hat rack.

 
robunited

Why do you keep doing this?

 
robunited

Ed “Rob, use your head for something besides a hat rack.”

You missed the complete point of this thread.

Most ppl have read this book.

The point is, to re-read it again and see how things
now have changed and became more clear.

We all know that there are a thousand other good books.

You really need to work on this.

 
Rookie

no, I did not you missed the complete point of the forum

enjoy the process.

 
robunited

Incredible.

How can I get a direct 1:1 comparison 3 years later, re-reading the same source?

It was that simple of an idea and topic for this thread.

 
robunited

In example, this line from the book:

"This is easy to illustrate. Think back to the first time you ever looked at a price chart. What did you see? Exactly what did you perceive? With no previous exposure, I'm sure, like everyone else, you saw a bunch of lines that had no meaning."

And that was exactly the same for me when I started.

Yes, I had some ideas about pin bars, support & resistance and other stuff later. But I still can't trade it consistently profitable.

Now, 3-4 years later, re-reading the "exact" same line in the book ....

... I can do a self-assessment.

Today, price cycles jump out to me all over the place.

Just re-reading the same line ... and how have you progressed over the years, trying, learning, testing, failing, continue to figure it out.

It's that exact effect I'm talking about in this thread.

I can't get this effect if I go to Mr. Steinberger, I have never read him 3-4 years ago.

Ed: "He is also the Psych coach for SMB Captial."

That's completely irrelevant to this exercise.

Is it that difficult to understand?

 
robunited

Ed, please tell me now, from the book Trading in the Zone ... at your stage of trading, in which category of the 3 types of traders are you currently? How do you self-assess, when you are re-reading that line of the book?

"If I were to classify traders based on the kind of results they achieve, I would put them into three broad categories. "

And be honest.

I'm honest.

 
robunited

But you have to re-read the context around that 'line' in the book also.

That's why I opened this thread with : ... please re-read the book for a refresh.

It's a self-assessment exercise, and not a collection of links to other coaches (however great they are).

 
robunited

"Awareness is not necessarily a belief. You can't assume that learning about something new and agreeing with it is the same as believing it at a level where you can act on it. "

Ed, your goal is to spread around awareness. Forum kindness. Noting wrong with it. But there is a place for it, when people are asking for it.

My goal is to work with where I am and what I got right now, and act on it, the belief.

And that's why I asked people who have read the book before ... to share their experience how they perceive it now, when they re-read it 3-4 years later.

 
robunited

Rookie: enjoy the process.

I do, and I break it down into 100th, draw and explain it, so I can explain it to myself, making mind maps, and then show my trade progress.

You mostly talk about your strategy and new sources/links, but never break risk management down into bits & pieces, as focus only.

You can't even keep a Trading Psychology thread on track, for it's purpose ;-)

A lot of work for you, that's my feeling. You have learned a lot, following 10 classes at the same time, agreeing with all of them ... I also do.

But now it's time to pin point all of that, and act on it.

 
robunited

@Allen "Great book. Here is the pdf. If anybody needs it."

Allen, pls help me to explain, what's that acronym you have put so nicely somewhere before ... for that switching around thing and collecting new information?

 
robunited

"People see what they've learned to see, and everything else is invisible until they learn how to counteract the energy that blocks their awareness of whatever is unlearned and waiting to be discovered."

Counteract the energy ...

"You are watching the market, and the variables you use to indicate that an opportunity exists are now present. Instead of immediately executing the trade, you hesitate. The trade feels very risky, so risky, in fact, that you start questioning whether this is "really" a signal.

-> As a result, you start gathering information to support why this trade probably won't work <-.
This is information you normally wouldn't consider or pay attention to, and it's certainly not information that is part of your trading methodology."

Stop gathering for new information to support why your trade didn't work.

Stay with your methodology you started to finish up and look within.

 
robunited

Anyone re-read something from this book over the weekend and got some feedback? Self-assessment?

 
shinkee

As much as I like to participate in a discussion about the book, I only read it very recently, just a few months ago.
I don't think this perception is what you're after, so no feedback from me.

 
robunited

Shinkee ;-)

You know better about me ;-)

How do you perceive certain lines from that book when you read it for the past month ... after trading for a bit longer?

It's the alignment to one and the same source that matters. For a discussion.

So please, just throw it out how you perceive the statements/lessons of this book.

 
shinkee

I've already traded for quite a long time when I read it (as you can imagine just less than 6 months ago), I didn't plan to re-read it again in the near future, as most of the points made by the book are still kinda fresh in my mind.
At that time when I read it, I had the exact symptom of what Mark Douglas called "boom and bust cycle" (when I was trying to finish Gold 1), which he says it is a typical symptom of someone that has learnt how to make money here and there, but haven't conquered the psychology or emotions.
I can't say I've completely solved this problem, but I would say I'm getting better at handling my emotions.

And this part:
"People see what they've learned to see, and everything else is invisible until they learn how to counteract the energy that blocks their awareness of whatever is unlearned and waiting to be discovered."
The same chart could be perceived different depending on the state of my mind, I made the same mistakes a lot, I too see things the way I wanted to.
Say I entered some long position, everything signals on the chart somehow automatically switch to support my idea that "the market will keep going long", or "the market will reverse and go long".
I still need to tell myself to look at the chart as if my long positions are not there.

 
robunited

Shinkee "... as most of the points made by the book are still kinda fresh in my mind."

"At that time when I read it, I had the exact symptom of what Mark Douglas called "boom and bust cycle" (when I was trying to finish Gold 1), which he says it is a typical symptom of someone that has learnt how to make money here and there, but haven't conquered the psychology or emotions."

That's the one, out of the 3 types of traders. The type trader who goes 1 step forward and 2 back next month.

And what's the answer to this?

 
shinkee

"And what's the answer to this?"

As I said, I'm still in the process of solving this issue. But this question (in my opinion) is mainly solve by having a good control of my own emotions, such as not getting in too big while I had a winning streak, and not revenge trading when I'm in a losing streak, focus more on sticking to the process etc.

Today I'm done with my funded account, I got a little profit I'll stop trading it until the reset on this Friday.
So I switch to a sim account and had a little fun, I got another 300+ pips.
Someone might be thinking I should've done that in my funded account.
But you know, the psychology of trading a funded account is quite different from sim account, and it is probably very important (again in my opinion) to refrain from trading when your mind is in a state that is fearing of losing.

return20200316.png
 
robunited

Great Shinkee! And a good & smart plan ... sit back, observe. Don't have to do much now, you already achieved another successful month towards your increase!

Shinkee: "But this question (in my opinion) is mainly solve by having a good control of my own emotions"

Stay cool! You are on a good way to more soon, just by doing nothing now! What a great position to be in.

 
shinkee

Yes, this month will be the third month of me achieving 3 consecutive profitable months, I'm so looking forward to my first increase soon.

 
robunited

Shinkee, imagine if you would run and manage 3 funded accounts ... for sure you would now say, ok, this one is done for the moment and put it on the back burner.

 
robunited

"Yes, this month will be the third month of me achieving 3 consecutive profitable months, I'm so looking forward to my first increase soon."

You deserve this, the first increase after getting funded! So glad to hear this.

If you touch this account this week, I'm flying to Singapore, it's only 1.5 hours away ;-)

Joke aside ... you got this!

Besides, the risk is high, this week could be another week of craziness, high spreads, disconnect from Server ...

 
robunited

You know what, if you tell Ron you didn't trade this week, as part of your risk management plan ... that tells a lot about you and the trust you get as a trader.

 
robunited

"So I switch to a sim account and had a little fun, I got another 300+ pips."

Why don't you ask support to reset a sim to 5k$ ... and test your scaling with this account size?

"Someone might be thinking I should've done that in my funded account."

No one thinks that. Everybody knows the 2.5k funded account is not there to make money.

It's only there to proof your risk management skills to Apiary and get up to the next level

 
shinkee

"Why don't you ask support to reset a sim to 5k$ ... and test your scaling with this account size?"

Not sure why our funding now starts from $4,000. In my first review with Ron, he told me my next funding value should probably be $8,000.
8k is already pretty close to 10k, so I'm not worried about the scaling anymore.

 
robunited

Shinkee ... didn't know that either. Doesn't matter much either ... it's clear that you are in full control of this!

Thanks for sharing this, refreshing to hear success stories this week ;-)

 
TheDreamingTrader

Well done Shinkee ,,, on your 3 months straight profit

Also I really like this insight from you....

Say I entered some long position, everything signals on the chart somehow automatically switch to support my idea that "the market will keep going long", or "the market will reverse and go long".
I still need to tell myself to look at the chart as if my long positions are not there.

Hadn't heard that one before but great advice .... easier said than done ... but great advice very similar to
don't get married to your position etc

 
robunited

Shinkee ... did you let that account pass into a profitable month without touching it before the 20th?

 
shinkee

Yes, and I got the increase today!

bv.png
 
robunited

Perfect!

 
TheDreamingTrader

nice one Shinkee